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Teaching English with Board Games feat. Zdenek Lukas – 127

Episode Overview

In this week’s episode of Board Gaming with Education, Dustin is joined by co-host Rodger Moore and guest Zdenek Lukas to talk about using board games to teach English. Join Dustin, Zdenek, and Rodger on this discussion of board games for learning.

  • Episode Topics
    • Board Gaming with Education Introduction: EduGamer Membership – 0:00
    • Welcome Rodger Back to the Show – 2:06
    • Who is Zdenek Lukas – 3:23
    • Defining “Board Gamges/Tabletop Games” – 3:37
    • Example of a Board Game to Teach English – 5:51
    • Are Some Board Games More Effective at Teaching English than Others? – 8:04
    • Participation and an Active English Langauge Classroom with Board Games – 16:56
    • Rodger Rejoins the Conversation – 26:22
    • Dustin, Dave, and Erik play 5 Second Rule – 34:48

Games from this Episode [Links include games in our Board Gaming with Education Store or Amazon affiliate links]:

Website: https://www.teacherzdenek.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teacherzdenek/

YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/TeacherZdenek

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zdenek-lukas-ma-%E2%9C%94%F0%9F%8E%B2-616969137/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/teacherzdenek/ 

Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/468428644026753/

Thank you to Purple Planet Music for the wonderful contribution of their songs “Soul Train” and “Retro Gamer” for our Sponsorship and Interview Segments. These songs can be found in full on this music archive. Also, thank you to Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) for his creative commons 4.0 contribution of “Getting it Done” for our Game Segment.

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Board Gaming with Education Introduction: EduGamer Membership – 00:00

Welcome Rodger Back to the Show – 2:06

Dustin welcomes Rodger back to the show to discuss today’s topic: “Teaching English with Board Games.” Join Dustin and Rodger after the conversation with Zdenek to discuss this topic further.

Rodger’s Email: rodger@boardgamingwitheducation.com

Who is Zdenek Lukas – 3:23

Zednek was born in the Czech Republic. He is a TEFL teacher with MA, CELTA, and DELTA qualifications. He taught in the Czech Republic and the UK. In each of these countries he ran a board games club and taught English through board games. Besides board games, he is also into running, football, and podcasting.

Defining “Board Gamges/Tabletop Games” – 3:37

Dustin and Zdenek define board games for the context of their chat:

…a board game is an authentic game authentic tabletop game that a native speaker would play on a real table. So it’s not something that would be primarily used in an English class.

Example of a Board Game to Teach English – 5:51

Zdenek share Codenames as a great example for using board games to teach English.

Are Some Board Games More Effective at Teaching English than Others? – 8:04

Dustin and Zdenek explore this idea of using effective game-based instruction with different board games. Some games may be more effective than others at teaching vocabulary, while some may be more effective to encourage engagement with communicative-based teaching.

Participation and an Active English Langauge Classroom with Board Games – 16:56

Dustin and Zdenek talk about using board games as tools to encourage participation. Games can be used to help peers feel more comfortable to practice their langauge in the classroom.

Rodger Rejoins the Conversation – 26:22

Rodger rejoins the conversation with Dustin and they chat about some of the insights that Zdenek had to share.

Dustin, Rodger, and Zdenek play 5 Second Rule – 34:48

Dustin, Dave, and Erik play 5 Second Rule.

Transcript of “Teaching English with Board Games feat. Zdenek Lukas – 127”

Transcript automated and provided by otter.ai. [Using this link helps us continue to use this transcription service for future episodes.] Disclaimer: This is an automated transcript and may have errors in grammar, wording, and/or word choice.

Dustin Staats 0:00
Another episode of Board Gaming with Education where we talk about board games for learning with zenyk Lucas, and we chat about some very important topics like using games for teaching language and what games are more effective at doing. So. We also talk about participation in an English language classroom or in a classroom and as a whole, and how games can help support that participation and engagement. So be sure to stick around for this episode. Before we get into the show. I do want to share with you if you go to Board Gaming with education.com and you register an account with us right now you will receive 500 edgy gamer points, those points you can use for your first purchase at our store as well. So that’s a $5 value that’s $5 off, it’s free to sign up for the edgy gamer membership, all you need to do is go to Board Gaming with education.com, click on the tab that says my account and sign up and you’ll instantly get the 500 edgy gamer points. You can also go to Board Gaming with education.com backslash, my dash account. And that’s just one bonus you get for becoming a member you can also leave a review once a month for a limited time to receive 500 more edgy gamer points. You also receive edgy gamer points for any purchases you make in our store as well. Those are just some initial benefits you’ll get for becoming an edgy gamer on Board Gaming with education.com. It is a new program, and we’re still rolling that out. So there will be more benefits in the future. So again, go to Board Gaming with education.com and sign up. And as always, if you have any questions about the games we carry on our site, or you have questions about game based learning or gamification, you can always reach out to me podcast at Board Gaming with education.com. All right, let’s get into the show.

Board Gaming with Education 1:48
Board Gaming with Education, a podcast for anyone curious about how games and education mix. We explore various topics like game based learning, gamification, and board games and the impacts they have on learning. here’s your host, Dustin Staats.

Dustin Staats 2:06
Welcome back to another episode of Board Gaming with Education. I’m joined by Roger today. Roger, welcome back to the show.

Rodger Moore 2:12
Now, thanks for having me back.

Dustin Staats 2:13
Dustin. So Roger, and I were gonna chat a little bit after our conversation with zenyk. And we’re going to talk about a follow up based on the conversation that then can I chat about which is board games for teaching English. So I mentioned this in our conversation, this is my background. This is xenyx background, Roger, your backgrounds in science. So we’re going to kind of chat a little bit of just about board games for teaching in general. And this is something I always love talking about. So let’s get into the conversation. We’ll be back in just a few minutes.

Welcome to another topical episode. And this is probably my favorite topic, because this was what the podcast started as his board game with English and talking about board games for learning English. And it’s been a while since we’ve really talked about this topic. And I’m super excited to be joined with the neck Lucas here today. And he was one of the first people I collaborated with on this topic. So I’m super excited to have him on the show. Would you mind introducing yourself a little bit more for our guests then?

Zdenek Lukas 3:23
Hi, Dustin, and the listeners Thanks for having me. So I’m cynic. I am an English teacher, a TEFL teacher. And I love board games. And I also use board games in my English classes. That’s awesome. I

Dustin Staats 3:37
like I mentioned it’s something that we have talked about at length. We’ve had a couple meetings to talk about board games, and you’ve shared some resources you’ve designed for some of your games, too. And before we kind of dive into this topic, we’re talking about board games for learning English. What is a board game?

Zdenek Lukas 3:57
Well, that’s a that’s a really big question. But for me, for me, a board game is an authentic game authentic tabletop game that a native speaker would play on a real table. So it’s not something that would be primarily used in an English class. That’s that’s how I understand the board game and that’s how I try to implement it in my classes. You see because you also have got like board games which are specifically made for for ELT use, you know, so you’ve got these different activities, let’s say in a teacher’s resource book, which sort of remind you of board games. So you might have a snakes, snakes and ladders game that sort of helps you practice a language point, let’s say conditionals. But for me, that’s not a real board game because that’s not an authentic game. That’s just something that was designed in order to help the teachers practice that piece of language.

Dustin Staats 5:00
Right. And that’s I guess that’s something now that I’m thinking this has a pretty I guess we should really contextualize this definition of board game. At first, when we were talking about this, I was like, Well, yeah, board games are just tabletop games, they can be games without cars, they make games with dice, they can be a game without a board, they can be a game through your own. But I think it’s important, where we look at something that you and I kind of focus on. And that’s hobby board games, or mass market games and bringing those to the classroom through designed either curriculum or lesson plans or activities. And how we do that. So what, what can you give an example of a board game, that’s a game that’s not specifically designed for English language learning that you use as an English language teaching tool?

Zdenek Lukas 5:51
Okay, so I don’t know, for instance, codenames. This is something that you can use for a lot of things as an English teacher. And so it really depends on what your aim is, what sort of target language you want to focus on in your lesson. And, like it can be it can be looked at from all sorts of different angles, you know, you could just bring the game. And that’s something I’ve done in the past as well just bring the game to the classroom. And then just, you know, just introduce your students to the world of Wargaming. And for me, this is this is really important, because that that might be a way they actually fall in love with the hobby. And while while they can, they can pretty much improve their English doing this, you know, pursuing this hobby, they can make friends along the way they can find English speaking partners. And that’s not always an easy thing to do. That there are a lot of different angles, we could approach this. Yeah,

Dustin Staats 6:48
yeah. So codenames would be a perfect example of teaching vocabulary, right, looking at maybe a specific vocabulary lesson, or just even bringing it to the classroom to use English right to engage students through through a game,

Zdenek Lukas 7:05
like for me codenames. Like I said before, it could be used for different things. So you could have a set of vocabulary. So you could even create your own card, you know, your own target language, let’s say you’re teaching, I don’t know animals. And you could have just a lot of animals as your carts there. So that’s one thing you could do to use it for, then you could teach a sense relation through that. So obviously, that would be like hype and hype, or names, you know, how the words relate how you can find all these associations. That’s what the game is about, pretty much. But also for me, I can see a lot of potential in teaching what’s called functional language. Now, this could be language for agreeing, disagreeing, interrupting, because it’s a team game. So you play in a team, you see. And so I would use it even for that, which is something that might not be obvious at first sight. But that as well, yeah.

Dustin Staats 8:04
Yeah, that’s awesome. I know, it’s been about a year now since I’ve taught English in a classroom. And one thing that I wish I would have done and I know I would do in the future, and you just mentioned something that helped me remember this is when we played the game pandemic, which is it’s not, it’s I mean, it’s tough to say that, because yeah, I am, I’m a, I think that any board game you can bring into the classroom can be used for language learning, right? Because somehow you’re interacting with the language, some are more efficient than others. And pandemic is a team based game. So you’re communicating with your team, you’re using language, like I think we should go to Miami to stop the virus or whatever. So you’re, you’re using like place, place vocabulary. And, but I wish I would have asked them to write down some of the phrases they used in the game or record themselves while they were playing the game, and then train or transcribe what they said in the game, and then look back on that language and look back on the maybe errors they made in their speech and how to improve that for the next time playing the game. Because it’s very iterative, in the language learning process. And obviously, when you learn a language, you have to continue to use it over and over and over again until you can start to form a better understanding and better use of the language.

Zdenek Lukas 9:25
No, absolutely. That’s a good point. That’s one of the things I do so for me, playing the board game itself is just a final activity. Like what when I am thinking of a lesson, a well planned lesson around a board game. So for me, that’s the final activity. And then after that would come, I saved the final activity, but after them would come a feedback, right? So it could be a delay what we called delayed feedback. So um, as a teacher, I’m making notes as my students are playing the game. And then let’s say I put a few correct and incorrect sentences on the board and then I let the students correct them. themselves, or it could even be the immediate feedback when I feel like they’re not using the right language. If I do it in a in a subtle way, of course that doesn’t sort of impede impede the enjoyment of the game, then I can just occasionally correct the students on the spot as well, you know? So the different ways to do it. Definitely. And yeah, it’s, it’s about the target language often for me, so I try to pre teach target language, we also have to pre teach the rules. You know, that’s another subject to talk about, I suppose. Yeah, I

Dustin Staats 10:33
think actually, that that makes for a good podcast episode. I’m going to write that down. Now. I mean, we talked, I recently had a podcast episode about teaching board games, but talking about maybe, front loading the rules in board games and strategies for doing that would be really cool. But I’m wondering, so I have my own anecdotal evidence and my own personal experience learning languages, but I want to hear from you and then maybe I’ll share mine? Sure is, do you think someone learning a language whether it’s English or Spanish, or Chinese or Korean, whatever it is, do you think having them show up? Playing a board game is a way for them to improve their language ability?

Zdenek Lukas 11:15
Or height? So that’s a huge question. Obviously, again, there are different different points of view, different angles, different approaches, different methods, different ways, you may understand how language is either learned or acquired. So obviously, the crushing theory of language acquisition is the famous one, right? So you, you you sort of need to be exposed to the language, right? The i plus one, the language that is comprehensible to you, you get the comprehensible input, and then you sort of pick it up as you go along. And this, I believe this can be very motivating. And it’s a natural way to do it. But obviously, like, that’s, that’s, like, if you use it in an English classroom, that you’re also expected, sort of, like teach them some target language, I mean, then the students. So for me, it’s about two things. When I use the board games in my classes, I, I’m always hopeful that the students will sort of fall in love with the hobby, and they start playing games, even outside my classes, you know, so I also run these board game clubs, where we just we just, they just show up, as you said in your question, they just show up, and we just play games. And I really think and I have seen it with my own eyes, that if you do this a lot. This is this is this is an activity that you do in English, with people who speak English, it’s a natural way to learn the language just like a child would learn, you know, from their parents.

Dustin Staats 12:52
Right. And again, I go back to I don’t think there’s anything, there’s no game that you can introduce, that would hurt your language ability, right, you would still, hopefully improve it again, it’s looking at the effectiveness of it. In my experience, I had went to I went to a a Chinese language meetup. And we played code names, and another game called bingo on which is cookie in Chinese. And I will never forget the word for cookie in Chinese because of that game. I mean, yeah, we spent, we spent 1520 minutes playing one game, and I learned one word. So that’s not really effective. But it’s still, it’s still showing that Sure, yes, you could show up and it will improve your language ability

Zdenek Lukas 13:35
to see because you’re very motivated. It’s also about you motivated because you like you like playing the game. And you forget that you’re learning. And it’s also about that emotional connection that you make with your opponents and teammates, and you make friends. And that’s very important. That’s a very important aspect that mustn’t be overlooked, for

Dustin Staats 13:55
sure. And would you say there are any games that are better for English language learning? Do you have a I guess any tips for those?

Zdenek Lukas 14:06
Yeah, absolutely. Like what while I kind of agree with what you say that any game could be used for that I I also think that some games are really more suitable for that purpose than others, you will have to have some sort of criteria after you’re looking at some criteria, like how how do I pick the game I want to use so it’s a lot of things. So it’s how long is this game going to take? Is it going to be a game suitable for this level that I’m teaching for the level of proficiency of the students that I’m teaching right now is how many players are going to play this game? Is it easy to teach? How long is it going to take them to grasp the rules? You know, so there are so many questions you have to ask for me. I don’t like using abstract games too much. I like when there’s some sort of a theme. I don’t like using games that don’t involve communication. So you might have games like, I like playing these games, like, for example, Exploding Kittens, I think is a wonderful game. I love I love it. But when I use it in the class, the students will just end up just looking at their cards, you know, so there’s a bit of, let’s say, reading involved, but then they will just play the cards, you know, they will not say much, because they don’t have to. So you have to sort of use games that the game needs you to speak right? in some way.

Dustin Staats 15:33
Right? Right. And I don’t know, I’m kind of just thinking out loud here is looking at some games that maybe you don’t, maybe Exploding Kittens would work. But I think that’s kind of tough, because your hand is secret, and you don’t want other people hearing but maybe you could work with a partner and decide what kind of rhymes you might not. I don’t know if I’d work with Exploding Kittens, but games like euro games or your Yeah, you know, you’re deciding how to spend your resources or games where you’re attacking other players, you’re deciding, like risks, you’re deciding which which country to go after? Hmm, at least with that you’re, you’re communicating with your partner, I suppose. But again, it’s it’s the effectiveness of well, is that really the most effective way of employing a board game? or learning language? Yeah, exactly. I

Zdenek Lukas 16:22
mean, it’s, they could be used, don’t get me wrong, even Exploding Kittens, and I’ve used it in the past. But this is just what I’ve learned from my experience, because you want to play something like code names, or social deduction games or Co Op games. You mentioned pandemic, if you have enough copies for for each person, it’s fantastic, you know, but at the end of the day, everybody should be speaking when they’re playing the game. Not just in silence, you know? And right, uh, I mean, depends, depends on the on the angle Really?

Dustin Staats 16:56
Right. And I mean, what I’m what I did with the pandemic, we had six players. So there were single player, single player, a team of two team of two. And does that make sense to you for six? Yeah. So a pandemic could work very well, with eight players, I think you could do pairs of teams. And I mean, it works. I think it works even more excellent with English language learning in pairs, because then there’s some peer to peer teaching, while you’re waiting for other players to take their turns, which is really good. There’s not a lot of downtime, because if you’re playing one player, for each, you know, there’s, it’s a four player game, if you’re playing with four players, a lot of times there’s one player and just kind of sitting there and maybe not engaging. I don’t know, I guess they’re kind of processing the dialogue that might be happening among other players, though, too.

Zdenek Lukas 17:47
Yeah, you know, like, there’s, there are always some sort of pitfalls, right, you have to make sure that everybody’s talking, you have to make sure that everybody is involved. And then you have got some games in which this doesn’t have to be the case. So something to think about really, like I like these games like snake oil, or funemployed. Or even debatable, when you don’t have a choice. You have to have your turn those games for me those games are fantastic. So I would recommend those as well.

Dustin Staats 18:20
Yeah. And that’s, I mean, that’s funny, because recently, I’ve kind of realized this, I don’t know why it took me so long to realize this. But improv and things like that scare the heck out of me, like I’m always scared to do some sort of improv stuff. But then, if I play game, a game like snake oil, like I can have a blast thinking of really clever inventions to try to sell to someone, or funemployed trying to think of why am I really silly qualifications are great for a job. And I don’t know, I mean, obviously, that that applies to, that applies to language learning to students are not as scared, right, is scared of making mistakes, they’re more open to just getting out there and plain.

Zdenek Lukas 19:06
Yeah, but but at the same time, the shy ones and the introverts, they’re, again, they’re going to suffer a little bit with games like these, I guess, because everybody’s looking at you all eyes appeal, you know, and that’s, that’s why the cards help you actually gives you something to something to hold on to, you know, so But still, it can, it can be a bit stressful, and you may get a little bit anxious, but that’s what that’s your job as a teacher to create such atmosphere in the class and provide this healthy learning environment, you know, so I think I can make it work. But as with everything in life and English teaching, you can never really please everyone, you know, so what I tried to do is to have a variety of games, so that everybody sort of enjoys the learning process.

Dustin Staats 19:55
Right. I think that’s a good tip too. Is that yes. There are games that are effective for teaching. But then there are also these games that are effective that are also more appealing to other students. And then other games might be more appealing to other students still. So do you have any other tips you might share with someone that is an English language teacher? And they’re thinking about using board games in class?

Zdenek Lukas 20:21
Yeah, so it’s like so so you might have a curriculum that you’re following. And let’s say, there is a grammar point in that curriculum. So if you, if you can think of, I assume that you would be a language teacher that knows board game, so especially at about board games. And well, you could try to think of ways you could use a particular board game like, you have to ask yourself this question is this board game going to use that target language that I’m teaching right now, for example, huge one for me is modal verbs for deduction, because obviously, the social deduction games and the werewolf games and whatnot, that’s where this would shine. So you might teach something like it must have been Tom, or I think Peter could be aware of, you know, so that’s, like, these games are amazing. For for teaching this kind of language. And then you could, you could link it to the Lexus, you know, to the vocabulary that you’re currently teaching. Like, we’ve already mentioned, code names, or even your, your favorite game, where words, you know, I know you’re very fond of this game. Right? I love it myself. And then also, there might be some sort of sort of thematic link, that’s what I sometimes like to do, we gave an example of snake oil. So I don’t know you might be teaching, giving, giving presentations, or sales, sales pitch, something like that business when you teach Business English. And then that’s, that’s like, a theme, but I’m not sure if this is the best example. But I think you could, yeah, you could link thematically, I’m trying to think snake oil, you could probably create some sort of constraints. On top of what the games already asking you to do that tie into your learning outcomes, maybe

Dustin Staats 22:15
you ask them to in their pitch, they have to use these specific grammar structures. And if they do that, they get a bonus point or something like that, too.

Zdenek Lukas 22:24
Exactly. And what you know, what I like doing when, when this is the case, I like preparing some sort of checklist for my students with all their target language. So it’s like a little table, and whenever they use that target language, they would make a tick, as that’s actually it, that’s actually a tip I was given by my delta teach Delta tutor. So it’s really a great way to make sure that there is some sort of proof evidence of, of the students learning, you know, right. And they’re really, really using that target language.

Dustin Staats 22:58
Right. And they’re, they’re processing that on their own to write their self directing their own learning,

Zdenek Lukas 23:04
which is really successful To me, it’s a very motivating, you know, because they, they have used it, you know, they have, they have managed to use it, it’s that they get this so that the sense of achievement. That’s, that’s why I love board games, because it’s like, when you read your first book in English, you know, that’s, that’s a massive moment in your, in your learning, that’s when you realize, Oh, this actually all makes sense. Suddenly, I’m, I’m really using the language that I’ve been learning at school, and there’s a reason for it, you know, or when you listen to the radio, you listen to a song, and suddenly it starts sort of clicking, you know, you, you can make out the words. And that’s, that’s very important moment in your learning, you know, because we all need to get to stay motivated. And no matter what level it is, you know, so that’s why board games are so so great, because once you finish playing that game, you’re you can say to yourself, well done, I’m gonna give myself a pat on the on the back, because I’ve played a board game, something that native speakers, native speakers would play. Alright,

Dustin Staats 24:11
very rewarding. And you kind of give me a flashback to I think the last time I felt that way about language was Spanish and university when I, when I was able to write like a letter that was fairly advanced, I think, for your language abilities. concerned. Yet, I haven’t been able to feel that way with language learning in a while. I mean, I use Chinese as very much day to day. So I was pretty excited when I was able to always be able to order a coffee and no matter like what kind of thing was thrown at me, I could figure out my way through it. Awesome. So before we head into our game, is there anything else you want to share or any last words of advice you might give to a teacher that wants to use board games for learning?

Zdenek Lukas 24:58
I would just say, don’t be Free, you know, don’t be afraid there are ways to do it. And because I know like I’ve like when I worked in London, I had a lot of colleagues who really liked games, but they sort of shied away from some of the games that I had there, because they just didn’t know the rules, or they were not comfortable teaching the game. So they didn’t know how, but there are always ways to do it, and your students will appreciate it. Because it’s, you know, board games are fun. So,

Dustin Staats 25:27
right, I think that’s super, super key as your students will appreciate it. And even if it’s something that you don’t like, plan a whole lot on, it’s fine. If you have that extra, like lesson that you can kind of do something different with, try it out. And next time, it’ll go a lot better.

Zdenek Lukas 25:49
Exactly. And I think the students will even forgive you like, if it’s not perfect, you know, and you will learn you will learn from your mistakes, obviously. And then next time, you will do better. Yeah.

Dustin Staats 25:59
Right. So cynic stick around, we’re gonna play game really excited for this game. But before that, I want to have a chat with Roger, we’re going to talk about a bit more about using board games to learn language, and then we’re going to play our game.

All right, and we’re back. So Roger, what did you think? What were some things that maybe stood out? Initially, based on the conversation that Zach, and I had,

Rodger Moore 26:31
I think the kind of the gist that I got from, you know, listening to you guys talking about that was, I think it was the kind of that underlying thing that there’s some thought process involved, right in in using a game in an educational sense that you just don’t, you know, come in willy nilly and go, Oh, you know, this has got some interesting content in it. And to be quite honest, when I first started doing that, that was kind of my response to where you were just like, Oh, I think I can do something with this. And then maybe you need to put a little more thought process into, you know, really, what are the students going to get out of it? Now, on the other side of that, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, either, where you can just throw it out there. And I found sometimes that worked really well for me, because then you would get these really interesting outcomes that the students would have, like, Oh, they interpreted it something from it this way. I didn’t think about that. And so I tried to turn those into positive learning experiences, you know, that sometimes spawn spontaneity was totally fine. But, you know, if there’s a balance there, they that is, yeah, it’s got to make sense that you that you do have some learning goals and outcomes that you definitely want the students get in, if they got something else that you were in not intending to, you’re like, oh, sometimes I think we can tend to think like, that’s a negative, but in some senses, that’s not. But then maybe you have to refocus the thing. And you could acknowledge that with the students like, Oh, this is really cool. You guys got this from it. But this is what I was kind of going for, right? You know, and kind of maybe redirect them a little bit, but not, to me, it was always a balance that you didn’t, I never wanted to you know, frown upon a student getting some getting a piece of information or an understanding of something that that might, that that that it that was not potentially beneficial to them. Right.

Dustin Staats 28:33
And, yeah, and know that I mentioned, looking at games and looking at the target language that are used in games. So going back to what you said is, yeah, there’s this game and has some content here that can be used, but we have to be conscious about how we integrate that as part of our teaching. And I mean, we do that as teachers anyways, right? We have most if not all, schools, definitely in the US, I would say have a lesson plan that you have to develop, and you have to tie it into certain learning standards or targeted learning outcomes, depending on I guess, the school district and how that’s kind of applied. Another thing that that I had brought up, which I thought was pretty cool. And I would love to hear your guess opinion on this. I like it as a language teacher, because as a language teacher, if you want to improve your language, you have to practice your language, you have to talk in class, you have to participate in class. Most language teachers use some form of participation, encouragement, whether that’s a grade based system or other ways to engage students. And one thing that I can talk about are these games like snake oil, debatable and funemployed, where you have to take your turn, you have to in snake oil, you have to take your turn and you have to sell your product in funemployed. You have to interview for a position so I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that aspect of using games to force students to participate?

Rodger Moore 30:07
Right? Well, you I think both of you gave came at it from both kind of perspectives, I think you just you came at it more of like, you know, more of an outgoing, don’t mind participating in front of others kind of point of view, like, Oh, I don’t see the big deal, you know, here, you know, doing that. But then, zednik pointed out, well, what about the student that is a little more withdrawn and doesn’t want to do that, that you then now you put him in an potentially in an uncomfortable position? Right. So I think it’s maybe more trying to strike a balance, like a game like that, like snake oil, for example. Because you, you want them to participate, and they have to, but then you might have some students that are not going to be comfortable speaking in front of others, it’s just the way they are. And that the fear there is that you’re, they’re going to shut down and not want to participate. Right? So given those students another opportunity to express that maybe in a different way, like you give an option, maybe they could write it down in, like I said, I don’t know exactly what it might be, you know what I’m saying? So I think that is the something you got to think about when you’re doing these games, like, Oh, this is really cool. You know, the kids are really going to like that, well, yeah, you’re there are going to be students that are going to totally engage in that. But then you have other ones that they may not respond to that. Like it might be more of a negative experience for them. But you, but the point is, is that you the whole issue there is you’re you have to participate in it, it’s kind of doing a little forcing, but then that that could be very beneficial in learning language.

Dustin Staats 31:53
Right, right. I think one thing I mean, I guess I have two points for, for my instruction. I almost always one in the past, when I’ve taught English in a classroom, I’ve used a participation score. And it wasn’t always evaluated based on whether they spoke in class. It was based on kind of engagement, and were they completing the activities in class. But then I also want to make sure I allow for a different space for students who are not speaking, I want to make sure they practice their speaking in some way, because that’s, you know, that’s one of the four things with language speaking. But then I also like games, because they are able to hopefully, initially, encourage a level of comfort in your classroom. And then hopefully, those students that are less likely to open up will be opening up with games, because in games, you’re able to, especially the games that Zack mentioned, like snake oil funemployed these are very silly games. And when you see other people, your peers being silly with the games, I think it gives you a certain level of comfort to kind of do the same. Mm hmm.

Rodger Moore 33:06
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, kind of like the peer. I don’t know, peer pressure. kind of idea, right? That like, everybody else is having fun API to to write or, but then even eat, like I said, even that you’re still gonna have students, it’s never gonna work perfect that regardless that may not have any bearing to them at all. It just like, I don’t like that. It’s just way too uncomfortable for me. And be honest with you, I’m probably more in that camp a little bit, because I was more of a lot, lot more shy, quiet, reserved, person, and I kind of am, you know, funny that I was a teacher, but, you know, it’s just like, funny. When I got out of the classroom, I was like, real quiet. You know, I was, you know, obviously, you would know it, maybe while I was, you know, in the classroom in front of students and stuff that like I was comfortable on that continent, that situation and that they just, you know, you got comfortable over time because you enjoyed it, but but, you know, when I stepped away from the stage is like, nope, Yeah, super quiet. Not as talkative, you know,

Dustin Staats 34:12

Rodger Moore 34:13
Not Not, not not, you know, very more introverted person and not so much an extroverted person, right.

Dustin Staats 34:18
Yeah, that’s funny. We’re both podcasting and both educators and I’m similar. I’m very much a quiet person and more introverted. I mean, like, things like this certain aspects. I like to be more extroverted. And that would be teaching in podcasting, or doing board games for learning, I think, because again, going back to, I enjoy it, and I really support the mission of kind of encouraging board games for learning.

Let’s move into our game. We’re gonna play Second Rule. So have you played this game before? Roger.

Rodger Moore 35:04
I don’t remember if I play this one or not.

Dustin Staats 35:06
So this is, it’s a great quick game. It’s something that this past year, I guess, last spring, last spring, one of our teachers at the school I was at had done this virtually, and it worked really well. But essentially, I give you a category. And you have to name three things in that category within five seconds, so I might say animals, and you have five seconds to name three animals. Alright, so you would have got it perfect. So I have some categories that already played this game. So what’s going to happen is you’re going to play and you’re going to score a certain number of points, and then you’ll be compared to what xenix score is. Alright, so do you see the the, the timer there? At the top?

Rodger Moore 35:55
Okay, yep. Okay. Um, I’m not gonna watch the clock. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna wing it as you say, otherwise it

Dustin Staats 36:05
will do. Okay. And this is, this is your timer. So I’m going to do the bell when your Time’s up. So we’re gonna start at the 20 things you find in water?

Unknown Speaker 36:21

Dustin Staats 36:29
It’s pretty nice. I was kind of surprised. Things you do or sorry, orgasm, start at the 40 things you do when you wake up?

Rodger Moore 36:40
drank. And now all of a sudden, it’s coming to me. You know, I’m like, Oh, yeah. brutal. Yeah, you get one. And that’s about it. I think that’s all I’m gonna be getting. And mostly,

Dustin Staats 36:58
you might get some. So we’ll start at the we’ll start at the 10. So for second things at the beach,

Rodger Moore 37:06
sand, sun, water.

Unknown Speaker 37:11
Got that one.

Dustin Staats 37:13
We’ll start at the 20 different types of vehicles,

Unknown Speaker 37:16
truck, car, motorcycle, who

Dustin Staats 37:23
started at the 30 places to shop.

Rodger Moore 37:28
Game stores.

Unknown Speaker 37:31
That’s all that matters. So

Unknown Speaker 37:34
no food or anything that doesn’t matter.

Dustin Staats 37:39
I’ll start at the 50 Christmas decorations, tree lights, candy canes. I kind of ring that early after you got the third one, but you still got it in two seconds to spare there. We’ll start at the 1310 animals.

Rodger Moore 37:59
Monkey alligator spider,

Dustin Staats 38:05
though is a practice.

Rodger Moore 38:08

Dustin Staats 38:10
So I’ll have to look back at that next and let you know if you beat him or not. I think you got to I think you’d might have gotten three or four. I don’t know. All right. So it sounds like Roger got to for sure that last one. We use it as a practice for the game. So well might give them half a point or a quarter of a point there. I don’t know. Maybe you decide as the listener? Do you think Roger deserves a point there? And let’s hear how cynic did. Now let me pull up the categories. All right. are gonna go on three to one things you find in water.

Zdenek Lukas 38:48
Amoeba stones, wheat.

Dustin Staats 38:55
Things you do when you wake up

Zdenek Lukas 38:58
and brush my teeth. put on clothes. Wake up

Dustin Staats 39:03
things at the beach.

Zdenek Lukas 39:07
Volleyball, sand or Mike.

Unknown Speaker 39:11
places to shop.

Zdenek Lukas 39:14
supermarket shopping mall. Stand.

Dustin Staats 39:20
Christmas decorations.

Zdenek Lukas 39:23
mistletoe Christmas tree? I don’t know. Light

Dustin Staats 39:29

Zdenek Lukas 39:31
Don’t dog cat Hawk. All right,

Dustin Staats 39:35
that’s all so I think we got maybe two or three. I’m gonna have to go back and listen to see and it looks like Zenit got two. So I’m gonna leave that up to the listeners. What do you guys think? Should Rogers bonus point count or should it end in a tie? And I should make another confession. Zanuck did have Have a practice couple of rounds to but I didn’t use the same categories for him. So I don’t know you you can decide as the listener who wins that round. All right, then I thank you again for coming on the show. And if anyone wanted to reach out to you, where might they find you? Or do you have anything special you’re working on.

Zdenek Lukas 40:19
So you can find me on teachers connect.com. This is where I also have got icons, which you can click, and it will take you to my different social media platforms. So I’m on Instagram, I’m on LinkedIn, and Facebook. And the thing that I could sort of promote myself in here is that I have this course for English learners called English through board games. So it’s something you can also find on my website. And I’ll also also have got an English podcast. But that’s not related to board games as such. It’s called the next English podcast. Awesome. Perfect. Yeah, thank

Dustin Staats 40:58
you so much. And I definitely I’m jealous that you’re teaching English class through board games this explicitly. So that’s super cool. Thank you again for coming on the show.

Zdenek Lukas 41:10
Thanks for having me, Dustin. It was a pleasure. Thanks.

Dustin Staats 41:13
Alright. Roger, thank you again, for coming on the show. We’ll be back with you. Hopefully, again, soon. If anybody wanted to reach out to you, where might they do that?

Rodger Moore 41:22
Um, I think the email for us for working with us by the better Roger at Board Gaming with education.com is probably the best way to reach out to me, I think. I mean, I got some Twitter stuff and whatever. But I think I’ve got a are more at evolving more. My Twitter account. That’s that one. I’ve

Dustin Staats 41:42
got a couple others. But that’s that one’s probably better as far as this stuff goes. Awesome. And I’ll have your email in the Twitter in the show notes. And also, you can always come say hi to Roger and I were pretty active in our Facebook group game based learning gamification, and games in education. It’s also just facebook.com backslash groups. backslash learning with games is the quick URL. So Roger, thank you again. We’ll be back again soon.

Rodger Moore 42:09
Okay, thanks for having me on. Dustin.

Board Gaming with Education 43:25
Thank you for listening in this week. If you liked what you heard, be sure to let us know you can find us on social media as Board Gaming with Education or BG games or email us at podcast at Board Gaming with education.com. If you want to support our podcast, be sure to check out our support page on our website. As always teach better learn more and most importantly, play more. Thank you for listening and until next time,

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