In this week’s episode of Board Gaming with Education, Dustin is joined by co-host Dave Eng and guest Terry Pearce to discuss the differences and similarities between game-based learning and gamification in both the corporate field and the educatioal field. Join Dustin, Terry, and Dave on this discussion of games for learning.
- Episode Topics
- Board Gaming with Education Introduction: GBL Conference – 00:00
- Welcome Dave Back to the Show – 1:01
- Who is Terry Pearce? – 3:09
- Framing the Discussion – 7:26
- ROI (Return on Investment) – 9:53
- Networking and Sharing within the Field of Games for Learning – 18:28
- Investing in Game-Based Learning and Gamification – 24:02
- What Can Educators Learn from the Corporate World? – 26:32
- Dave Rejoins the Conversation – 31:40
- Dustin, Dave, and Terry play Wits & Wagers – 38:32
Games/Books from this Episode [Links include games in our Board Gaming with Education Store or Amazon affiliate links]:
- The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses
- The Gamification of Learning and Instruction: Game-based Methods and Strategies for Training and Education by Karl Kapp
- Actionable Gamification: Beyond Points, Badges and Leaderboards by Yu-Kai Chou
- Even Ninja Monkeys Like to Play: Unicorn Edition by Andrzej Marczewski
- More content from Andrzej Marczewski including the Design Element Cards
Thank you to Purple Planet Music for the wonderful contribution of their songs “Soul Train” and “Retro Gamer” for our Sponsorship and Interview Segments. These songs can be found in full on this music archive. Also, thank you to Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) for his creative commons 4.0 contribution of “Getting it Done” for our Game Segment.
Our Facebook Group for Educators: Games-based Learning, Gamification, and Games in Education
You can listen to us on Apple Podcasts (or any other platform you get your podcasts):
Board Gaming with Education Introduction: GBL Conference – 00:00
The Games-Based Learning Virtual Conference is the premiere professional event for designers, educators, entrepreneurs, and instructors, for games, games-based learning, gamification, serious games, and simulations.
Use coupon code “BGE“ for a discount and help support our community!
Welcome Dave Back to the Show – 1:01
Dustin welcomes Dave back to the show to discuss today’s topic: “What Game Design Can Teach Us.” Join Dustin and Rodger after the conversation with Steve to discuss this topic further.
Who is Terry Pearce? – 3:09
Terry is the founder of Untold Play. He’s spent twenty years experience in corporate Learning & Development, with a specialism in designing learning experiences. What he loves to do most, and the reason he founded Untold Play, is to bring playful and games-based learning approaches into learning experiences to create engagement. He also writes regularly for Bookboon, the world’s largest ebook publisher. Recent or upcoming speaking and exhibiting appearances have included Spiel Online (Education Section), the Games-Based Learning Conference, and the Playful Creative Summit.
Framing the Discussion – 7:26
Dustin and Terry start to chat about both game-based learning and gamification in the corporate world and the world of education. Terry talks about silos and traditions of doing things how they’ve always been done. The discussion continues with ways of breaking these silos/traditions.
ROI (Return on Investment) – 9:53
Dustin and Terry chat about ROI and what that means in education and outside of education. They also talk about what’s important for ROI and how we can leverage those things with game-based learning and gamification.
Networking and Sharing within the Field of Games for Learning – 18:28
Dustin and Terry go into what and how ideas spread within education and outside education in corporate worlds, non-profit, or government sectors.
Investing in Game-Based Learning and Gamification – 24:02
Funding for gamification and game-based learning varies depending on its applications. Terry and Dustin chat about the ideas of how funding starts in the field of education versus the corporate world.
What Can Educators Learn from the Corporate World? – 26:32
Terry shares some tips and resources for educators that have been useful in his endeavors.
Dave Rejoins the Conversation – 31:40
Dave rejoins the conversation with Dustin and they chat about some of the insights that Terry had to share.
Dustin, Dave, and Terry play Wits & Wagers – 38:32
Dustin, Dave, and Terry play Wits & Wagers.
What Game Design Can Teach Us About Life feat. Steve Dee – 132
Transcript automated and provided by otter.ai. [Using this link helps us continue to use this transcription service for future episodes.] Disclaimer: This is an automated transcript and may have errors in grammar, wording, and/or word choice.
Dustin Staats 0:00
Before we jump into today’s episode, I want to share with you the gvl conference, Dave chats a bit about this conference that he is putting on through university XP. And I encourage you to join all three of us, Dave, Terry, and I will all be at that conference, as well as some other amazing guests, you can go to gbl conference.com. To check out the guest lineup, there’s over 30 speakers. Really, really awesome. I’m really excited for this. And if you do sign up, use BGP as a coupon code to save $20 off the conference. And you’ll also help support our podcast. So again, gbl conference calm. Dave, we’ll share a bit more about this conference in our discussion today.
Board Gaming with Education 0:44
Board Gaming with Education, a podcast for anyone curious about how games and education mix, we explore various topics like game based learning, gamification, and board games, and the impacts they have on learning. here’s your host, Dustin Staats.
Dustin Staats 1:01
Alright, so I’m here with Dave, a co host with us this week. And I’m excited because we are going to listen into a conversation I had with Terry and this is, I learned a lot from this because he talks about the differences, or at least from his experience in his perceptions between corporate world and game based learning gamification and in education. So it’s really cool to kind of reflect on that different lens and see what we can learn from each other. And I’m excited to be joined by Dave today because him, Terry and I, and some of the other things and topics we talk about on this episode, are all going to come together at the gbl conference. Dave, would you mind saying hi, and sharing a little bit more about that conference?
Dave Eng 1:44
Sure. Hey, Dustin, thanks for having me back on the show. So yeah, you mean, Terry and a few of our other colleagues are going to be presenting at the gamespace learning virtual conference, which is happening April 16. Through 18th 2021. You can find out more information at G bl conference calm, that’s gbl conference calm. And the conference has really focused on using games, gamification, games based learning serious games for teaching, training, learning and development. And this year’s conference, theme is how we can use games to foster a more connected and empathetic world. We’ve gotten a lot of great panel presentations and single presenter presentations that I’ve been going through, because a lot of our content is pre recorded. And it’s going to be great. I encourage as many people to attend as possible.
Dustin Staats 2:32
Yeah, I’m excited. And I will be presenting there too, as well and talking about how to leverage game based learning to create more empathetic and connected communities and in our classrooms. So I’m super excited. I’m excited to seek since this will be the first one that university XP is hosting and see what kind of platform do you leverage? I know you’re going to be using mighty network. So there’s going to be some networking opportunities as well. So super excited for that. All right. Well, let’s get into the conversation with Terry, and we’ll be back to chat a little bit more.
Welcome to another topical episode of Board Gaming with Education. I’m excited to be joined by Terry Pierce, we had a chance to get to know each other a little bit over I guess the pandemic is maybe when we first met online. Yep. So Terry is a game based learning designer, and he’s gonna talk to us today about the idea of game based learning in the corporate sector. So I’m not very familiar with this. And I’m excited to kind of ask him some questions, because you actually had a chance to take my course. I’m excited to hear how that compares to what, what you do in the corporate world, too. But before we get there, would you mind introducing yourself a little bit to our listeners?
Terry Pearce 3:47
Yeah, sure. Justin, thank you. And yeah, I’m excited to talk about x, he was taking your course that really made me think even harder about the kind of differences in similarities with the corporate and education sectors and what we can kind of learn from each other. And But yeah, I. So I’ve been in learning and development, in kind of, I mean, it’s a corporate sector to generalize, I do a lot of work with local authorities, with councils and with NHS trusts. But you know, a lot of that I find operates in a very similar way in practice, as involved in that for about 20 years, first of all work inside of organizations, but then for the last 15 as a consultant, and then kind of moving over that time from facilitating mostly to designing mostly, and I guess I’ve always had a real deep part of me, there’s always been about games. So I think I played my first game of d&d, at nine years old, I cajoled my, my mom who’s who I, you know, snuck into the room while she was playing it with her friends and cajoled her into letting me join in and kind of never looked back. You know, it was in chess club at school. was the first kid on the street to get ZX Spectrum. Do you have the ring spectrums in the US? No, I guess it’s just the next step on from like a Tarik. So it’s like, you know, and so yeah, you know, that kind of stuff. And then, you know, huge board gaming and computer gaming habit, I guess over the years. I think because of all that I just found myself really gravitating. And this is very similar to what I heard one of your other guests, Kim, say on your show the other day, actually, but kind of gravel change was bringing that stuff into what I was doing in my sessions that I was first of all, running, and then designing, just trying to bring games game like elements and just kind of make it more playful. And I guess that the kind of playful element is really where I’ve, where I’ve come to more recently. And that’s kind of my, my consulting my company now is untold play. And the whole idea behind indoor play, is that we probably give up the idea that play is useful and important, far too easily. And we think that is a kind of childish thing. And you know, I want to try and bring that back into the workplace and the power of that back into the workplace a little bit. Which is, again, you know, where I think it’s really interesting to look at what education is doing, because obviously, when you’re working perhaps with younger people who don’t feel that way, then that’s really interesting to me.
Dustin Staats 6:12
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love how you mentioned that you wanted to kind of bring games into what you’re doing. And I know, in my, my experience, I’ve learned a lot about just the learning process through game based learning gamification, because I’m thinking through how these elements actually help with learning and how they help with building relationships, how they help with the culture in my classrooms. I also want to mention, so you played Dungeons and Dragons when you were nine years old. I think I made when I was like 10, or 11, or 12. But I had no idea what I was doing. I kind of just took the book out and did some stuff. And I think we just did it once because I think
Terry Pearce 6:48
You were DM-ing when you were that age?
Dustin Staats 6:51
you Well, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t really call me. Like more like, I don’t know, I growing up, I was always the person that created experiences for my friends or family like I would. We did like school and I was always the teacher, or we ran a I created a Jeopardy game. And I was the one that did was the host or whatever. But yeah, dungeon dragons that we never got into it at that age. But we did try it once.
Terry Pearce 7:18
Cool. Yeah, no, it would have been complex. If it was only kids, I guess I got to kind of pass to the slightly more advanced things going on. Because my mom was it was fun. Yeah,
Dustin Staats 7:26
yeah, that’s awesome, kind of were initiated into. So I’m curious, maybe just looking at very broadly, what do you see as the differences between gamification or game based learning both in I guess, corporate world slash organizations, professional lives versus in education in schools?
Terry Pearce 7:53
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I have to say, first of all, that when I when I talk about the differences, I’m hoping to this conversation to learn even more from you about the one side of that, because, you know, what I can say about the education side is, is, you know, just through, through what I’ve seen, from from a slight distance, you know, from talking to friends, or teachers from getting involved with, in can connected with people like you online, and reading. But yeah, I think a lot of it, as far as it seems, to me springs out of kind of two things, really, I think the, the differences, firstly, just kind of silos and traditions that, you know, not not for any particular reason, but just because the people who came before me or the people who came before you did things a certain way, and then you just kind of do them in a similar way. So someone knows how to use a particular app, and therefore they use it or a particular resource, or they do things a certain way. So like in you know, it could be like a tradition like in learning and development, yet the idea of icebreakers and there’s a big tradition of icebreakers at the start of a training session, if it’s a face to face workshop based training session, there’s always ones that are kind of passed down from trainer to trainer, and it’s been around for years and years. So you got, you’ve got things like that, I think that just about, you know, who you associate with. And then I think the other set of differences really are about probably about the kind of drivers and the environment, I think, you know, if you think about things, like, who do you answer to and who pays for it, and who’s it for, then I think, you know, you get these really different answers, you start to think okay, and again, you know, correct me or me just you your perception education side of this, but I think you have, you know, that governance element where you’ve got regulators that’s offset in the UK, I’m sure there’s, you know, federal or state equivalents in the US. And then the parents and what they feel about, you know, how people have been educated. But then on the on the corporate side, you know, you’ve got the pressure of ROI, you know, that and that’s a very different pressure. It’s not like better or worse necessarily, but it is different. And it creates all this very different stuff. So, for instance, with ROI, I think one thing that really happens in the corporate world is you can spend a lot of money, but only if you can justify it, you know, and you’ve got to justify. So there’s in a way, there’s, I think, a lots more flexibility to do things. And, you know, there are games that aren’t getting involved in as digital digital game that I’ll probably talk a little bit more about it, because I’m really excited about being involved with at the moment, a vive, which is, you know, in terms of its development costs, and it being specifically made for corporates, rather than a commercial thing that you’ve bought in, you know, it’s not something I can imagine being developed very easily in the corporate sector in the education sector. But you know, it’s been developed, because it is specifically for people who are going to say, Yeah, I can see where the ROI is on that. And I can see that, you know, it’s going to do it’s going to get its value.
Dustin Staats 10:55
Right. I think you mentioned a couple things, the first thing he talked about was icebreakers. That’s a big thing. I guess, contentious thing, maybe in among teachers and admin is, icebreakers can be done very poorly. And developments for teachers are very well. And I think the key is understanding why are you using this icebreaker? What I’ve seen done well, in some professional developments, or even like, teacher happy hours, is we’ve done games. And then we’ve talked about, well, how can these games actually be used in our classroom too. So it’s not just a way to kind of build relationships, but it’s also something that we can kind of take as a tool back to our classrooms?
Terry Pearce 11:39
Yeah, definitely, if you can make it have a relevance and and bring a learning point, or make a connection to the lesson plan, as well as it’s just being some fun. I think that’s really important.
Dustin Staats 11:47
Yeah. And I wonder, so icebreakers for in your experience? How? How have you managed to see those work? Well, in your case?
Terry Pearce 11:59
I think, yeah, when there is that, that kind of link to what you’re doing, or you’re able to draw on it later. I think also, for me, they work quite well, when, and this is something that again, works quite well in the corporate setting. And when they just push people a little tiny bit out of their comfort zone, but not too far. I think, you know, if it’s something that’s really pedestrian, and just, you know, asking people to talk about their favorite something rather than, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, it can be fine. But it’s not really something that’s going to kind of get people just sitting up and say, Oh, this session is going to be really interesting, and then started to get involved. And it’s not going to draw on some of the principles of kind of games based learning that I think make it so powerful. But if I just give you a really quick example, which will spoil it for anyone else who’s going to do it if they listen to it, but one that I really love is something called the resources game, where you get people up standing up at their seats. And you say, okay, so your job is that you have to make sure that your feet are not touching the floor, when I count down from 10. So I’m gonna count down from 10, when we hit 10, if you’re not gonna be using floor and all you’ve got to do with this, the only tool you’ve got for this is the tools that I’m going to give you, you can’t use anything else apart from the resources that I’m going to give you. That means you can’t use the chairs. And you really draw their attention away from anything, anything else other than thinking about the resources. And then you give them these pieces of paper and you say, okay, the piece of paper is all resource that you’ve got. And so they started saying, well, this sounds easy. All we’re going to do stand on the paper, right and can’t stop Canada from 10. And they stand on the paper. And you say brilliant, well done, because you gave them enough paper that they could each stand on a piece. They say now we’re going to do it again, and you take away half a piece of paper now, okay, maybe we can do this, and we tear it in half. And maybe we have to kind of you know, standing on each other’s shoulders a little bit to kind of balance each other. And they say, well, then do it again and take away half again, and keep doing it until I like, this is impossible. Now, what are we supposed to do build the human pyramid. And at some point, hopefully the penny drops and somebody says, hang on, tell us what the objective was again? And he said, Well, okay, the objective was, you just got to make sure that your feet aren’t touching the floor. When I count down from 10, okay, so if we were to jump up in the air, or to just sit on our berm and our feet in the air, you know, is that okay? Yeah, fine. And you can use that for all kinds of learning points in the lesson about lateral thinking about you know, being clear on your objective. All right, so that’s just a quick example. But you know, bringing in game like concepts in a way that I think does make people kind of just push them a little bit out of their comfort zone.
Dustin Staats 14:40
Right. That’s awesome. I wonder to what came to my mind when I knew there was a hook or some reveal There’s your feet you said, does that also include your shoes? Can I can I just be on my in my shoes. I’m not technically standing on the floor with my feet.
Terry Pearce 14:56
Yeah, you have to really push it in terms of trying to make them focus on the resources. How they’re gonna use the resources for you.
Dustin Staats 15:02
Awesome. Another thing you mentioned is the ROI, which I’m, I’m assuming as return on investment. Is that right? Sorry? That’s right. No, no, that’s okay. I just want to make sure I know and anyone listening. So that’s really, I guess, interesting to maybe think about the differences between that for teachers in the classroom and in a different setting. Because, for me, I believe using games in the classroom, the ROI is very high. But others may not see that initially, because they see it maybe as wasting time. But one thing that we talk about on this podcast all the time is the relationships that you’re able to form with your students. And being able to also incorporate maybe some other learning aspects are definitely definite positive, but even just playing a game at the beginning class, I think the ROI is very high for those potential relationship builders, with your students. And one thing that you might have to convince or some people you might have to convince, or parents, or administrators, right, so I wonder, on your end, you mentioned ROI. And that’s, I’m assuming, maybe you can talk to what were the the where it’s evaluated from, what is a good return on investment versus a poor return on investment?
Unknown Speaker 16:17
Terry Pearce 16:17
I mean, I think because because when you started talking about ROI, there, you’re talking about very kind of soft kind of intangible benefits, which I think are huge. I, you know, I’m not gonna argue against them any day of the week, I mean, there’s kind of two main scenarios that I have gotten involved in, one is being inside of the company, and one is being outside as a consultant. But in either case, you know, there’s costs involved is a little bit different from a school where you’re going to be, you know, that the kids are going to be there anyway, it’s question of how you use your time. So okay, you’re paying for this person’s salary, you’re paying for all the materials, you’re paying for people to be away from their jobs, when it could be earning money for the organization, or if not earning money for the organization, if it’s a hospital, or when they could be providing services. So it’s justifying that in real money terms, which is a course on sales, and the game you’re doing as a sales game, is pretty easy. Because you know, you can say, Okay, this is what the sales are going to increase by. But if it’s a course on, you know, teamwork, or if it’s something on, you know, trying to manage people in a more human way, rather than, you know, and some of these things can be really difficult to measure. But you can’t just say to people, look, bring me in, let me run this game to train your people, I promise you it will work, you know, you have to show some kind of evidence. And there’s this whole kind of thing that’s grown up around that around evaluation methods and trying to nail down exactly what kind of benefits you’re getting from the time and money and resources spent.
Dustin Staats 17:55
Yeah, it’s, I guess, it’s tough, I think looking at it in education to is we do we can look at games in the ROI on return on investment. I used to use that term in education. So it’s funny. But looking at how our students might perform on tests based on a game based learning curriculum or another curriculum, right, we could look at some more measurable outcomes.
Terry Pearce 18:21
Yeah. And you’re gonna be you’re gonna have to justify agenzia grades, if your people don’t get the grades, then you’re gonna have to answer for that. Right. Right. Right.
Dustin Staats 18:28
Yeah. All right. So I wonder if maybe we could kind of explore this topic together is what are some things that might be detrimental to education that work well in or outside of education? Or vice versa? What are some things that maybe work well, in education that might not work so well outside of education?
Terry Pearce 18:50
Yeah, and again, this is kind of just based on what I perceive, to some extent, but I worded chapter just just as slightly prep for this chat to a friend of mine is a teacher in the UK. And again, that’s another thing that might color things, you know, might have a perception of education in the UK that may or may not be the same for the countries. She talked about teachers not always being great at an educators as well. And I think this might well be true if I’m thinking of some of the university scenarios I’ve been involved in as well. Now, obviously, being great at sharing resources and expertise with each other, which I think corporate training can be quite varied on that. But I think once you get in a consulting arm of it, I think once you get past people worrying about competition with each other, which, if you get involved in any kind of communities, or kind of networking type things, then actually that you get passed out pretty quickly because you realize that, you know, you can gain a lot more from sharing with people, I think, I mean, in a way, you know, obviously, I can see that you do that you share really well and you’re involved in you know, some of the communities that I get involved with do involve educators definitely do that. But I wonder if it’s true of the wider education community See? Um,
Dustin Staats 20:01
yeah, I would say that what’s tough for education with game based learning and gamification is, it’s a very new? Well, it’s, it’s not new. We’ve been using games in education forever. But what’s new is the ideas of using game based learning in an appropriate way or an effective way. And especially it would, which is my kind of expertise is board games, those are very not, it’s not not a popular thing. It’s not mainstream at all. And it’s something that we’re kind of pushing for is how can we? How can we get more teachers, playing more games, play more board games, and then thinking about these game mechanics and these ideas and bringing them into their classroom to you?
Terry Pearce 20:45
Yeah, yeah, I think, I guess that that kind of goes back to what I was thinking about those kind of silos, you know, because you’ve just done things a certain way as tradition really. And then maybe there’s a tradition there, you know, you’re having to fight to some extent against that kind of true, very traditional idea of education, yeah, was just kind of regurgitation. Or something like that, which, you know, I guess, corporate training does have to do that as well. But because it’s so driven by that, kind of trying to show value for money, people, perhaps have a little bit more license sometimes to try and find creative ways to do that, you know, you’re not going to get slapped down, if you can show that your creative, wacky idea, actually does work, right, which I imagine is a little bit harder to show, sometimes the grades or people might still look askance if they, you know, there’s there’s that slight kind of mean, that I’ve seen in movies about education, where you’ve got the, you know, like the Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society type character, where, you know, the other teachers look in as they go in past and say, what exactly is going on in that classroom? You know, that kind of thing? I don’t know, is that just is that just a trope or?
Dustin Staats 21:54
Right? No, I think what’s interesting is, it just depends, I think, different teaching styles, different teaching personalities. And something that Roger, he’s helping me with Board Gaming with Education has been on the show a couple of times, is we talk about the noise level in the classroom, knowing the difference between a good high level of noise because they’re learning and they’re excited about learning, and they’re engaged with learning versus maybe not so good, high level of noise, where they’re off topic, and they’re chatting, and how we want that good noise level in our classrooms. Like that’s our teaching style. Where other teachers may not be not. Right, like that way.
Terry Pearce 22:40
I think that part of the kind of corporate money marketplace type element of corporate training means that there are a lot of games out there that are developed locally, like I was talking about with the so this game, I’m involved with a vive, which is a kind of digital game, that specifically kind of created not by me, but I’m one of the facilitators involved with it. And so, too, as a leadership game, and decision making game, and it’s, you know, there’s a lot of work going into the development of it almost as much as you might with a commercial game. And then you get these kind of box gains for use in the classroom that are specifically kind of crave for it. So I hear a lot on your podcast, and in your circles about, you know, adapting games that are commercial games, just kind of for fun, but then seeing what learning you can get out of them, which is great. But there’s these games, you know, that are designed specifically for learning, and for, you know, productivity learning or for communication, learning or whatever. And that, you know, there’s this marketplace for them, and trainers and training companies buy them in sometimes that pretty huge expense. And that’s a whole kind of part of the silo or the tradition on that side. And I wonder if you’ve got that tradition, and whether or not having that, you know, is, is missing something, I guess?
Dustin Staats 24:01
Yeah, I would say, I’m definitely jealous of the the market at play there. Because there’s like, there’s money, right, pushing those ideas out there. Yeah, we’re in education. There’s not a lot of money in gamification and game based learning. There’s been some platforms. Some people may be familiar with classcraft. It’s a gamification overlay for your classroom management. And there are or class dojo is very similar. Kahoot quizzes, these are all resources teachers are very familiar with, but I don’t know I don’t. They they worked well, because they worked well in the classroom. It wasn’t the money first, we need this. It was this is working well. So let’s continue pushing us. Let’s spread it among our colleagues. Like I use this too on the class, you should try it out. And because of that popularity, it grows. I feel like maybe you’re saying that there’s an idea in a sense that we need this so we’re going to figure out how to do Yeah,
Terry Pearce 25:01
which is, which is, you know, which is great. I think there is some stuff that goes on in education in the education sector that I’m jealous of. So for instance, I recently started talking to an organization who has a kind of program that’s very similar to Minecraft that they want to use in corporate training. But the reason that they’re having to use that, and we’re having to explore those avenues is because Minecraft education is this edge edition, which is mind blowing, which is amazing, and is locked down for education. So if you’re not working with an education institution, you can’t use it.
Dustin Staats 25:34
Yeah, yeah, it’s, I haven’t I’ve helped one student in an after school program that his math teacher assigned homework with Minecraft, I think that was before there was an education version, it was just when I was still just growing in popularity. And they were looking at like dimensions. So he had to go on Minecraft and build, like four by four box and do a couple other math related things. But yeah, yeah, I think that’s definitely because I think a lot of it’s because it’s a way to connect with our students through what they are interested in. And a lot of times, that’s entertainment based games.
Terry Pearce 26:11
Yeah, absolutely. But I think, yeah, you know, I think it is good. What to do see you under the educators do, which is to look around and see what is available and try and use it in a way that will, you know, the getting really good out of it for the outcomes you’re looking for, for the for the classroom definitely
Dustin Staats 26:32
read, I want to ask to if someone was an educator, and they want to learn something from what you’re doing, and they want to be able to maybe kind of start thinking about what you do with gamification game based learning outside of the classroom. What are some places you might direct them to are some tips? Yeah, definitely.
Terry Pearce 26:51
I think that’s another place where there’s that kind of silo and tradition thing going on, that means that you just kind of look at what’s there. And again, I don’t really know all of the education references. I mean, you know, we do, you know, people I associate with your corporate channels do know about bloom, and we do use bloom, for instance, but I get the impression the education sector sector really, really uses bloom, a lot more blooms, economy, and so on. And I think there’s a whole bunch of stuff outside of outside in the corporate that I don’t get the impression people do really know so much about in the education sector stuff like an A mentioned on one of your previous episodes, you Chi Chao, and autolysis, who, you know, are huge fans of and I think some people look at that just as a gamification tool, the automatise framework, but actually, it was developed from examining games. So I think it can also be used really nicely for examining the motivations for games and how you can build them into anything you’re doing. Similarly with Jessie shell, the art of lenses. So Jessie shell is a game designer, he’s actually kind of, kind of, largely digital, does some of the games, using digital resources for Disneyland and all kinds of, you know, massive stuff. But you know, people I know in doing games based stuff in the corporate sector, know and read people and stuff like his work and also called Cat Cat was great for both actually gamification and game based learning, he’s got a great book, which I’m going to just you have to look on my bookshelf to remember the title of play to learn cow calf is a great book called play to learn about designing learning based games. And just Shell’s book. The Art of lenses is really, really good as well as UK Charles work, which a lot of it’s available via his website, and his book. So the other thing is a lot of kind of authors and sources like that. There’s a great website xe as well, by an I’m probably going to pronounce his name wrong, but Andrew ma to ski. And he can spell it right. And in the in the notes, has a deck of cards, but it also lays it out as a periodic table of game elements. And you can actually start to move these elements about and just think about them and kind of saying, okay, where are these in my game? And how can I kind of change them around or put more of them in there or switch things up? So another really good tool.
Dustin Staats 29:22
That’s really cool. I’m I, I tried to design games for fun, but I recently haven’t had a lot of time. I got a board game design calendar recently, too. I’m hoping to set some yearly goals for that. But you did mention one thing that I think I like to share a lot is I mentioned you can challenge gamification, how he classifies everything. And as teachers and educators. We’re doing a lot of those things already. We just don’t realize it’s gamification. And I guess it’s called something else right. One example is I know a lot of schools that do this the school that I was at recently or last ad unit versity so each homeroom was at university and they’re all universities based in Los Angeles areas like UCLA, USC, Pepperdine, and Anthony, the last one. But anyways, um, and they would score points based on different challenges throughout the year. So, bring a certain number of canned goods in and you your university scores, this many points, dress up the best for Pride Week and your university scores this many points and that’s type of gamification, right, the universities competing against each other to build culture within the class or within this whole school. But yeah, I think that’s awesome. Terry, do you have any last words maybe to share before we head into the game,
Terry Pearce 30:41
I think just going back to what I was saying about the kind of corporate games that are out there that are kind of designed for that corporate market, similar to wide what I tried to do with the education market, I look around, I look at apps like spiral and Pear Deck, and I look at Minecraft, even though I can’t fully access it, but I look at some of the alternatives similar to it. And I try and say, okay, you know, try and cross that bridge, and say, How can I adapt and use those and, you know, some of those things might look as if they’re designed for a slightly different audience, but that’s sometimes Okay, depending on the on the group that I’m using, and with. And, and I think, you know, I would probably just encourage people to do that on both sides, you know, so I think, if you’re looking at some of those games, they’re kind of sometimes price for the corporate market, but sometimes not. And if you’re talking about you know, buying a resource that might, you know, might be able to formally honor, you might be able to justify how it’s going to help the education process, then, you know, I wouldn’t close my my doors to that, I would say, to look at all the different things that are available across that divide.
Dustin Staats 31:43
Right, and I don’t know, maybe you would be able to speak to this, but it doesn’t hurt reaching out as an educator to some of these organizations, because they’re probably going to be very happy to say that they’re able to assist in education and happy to share some of these tools. I mean, obviously, not all of them, but definitely some.
Terry Pearce 32:03
I think that’s a great call, especially now, actually, I think there’s been a bit of a trend during the pandemic, actually, for people to start to just offer things to help with difficult situations, and particularly, you know, because they need to get some traction if their themselves are struggling. And so, you know, I think that helps that kind of profile building and, and getting a good name for yourself and helping out the public causes.
Dustin Staats 32:30
So Terry, just stick around for just a moment, and we’ll be back with our game.
And we’re back, Dave, what were some things that kind of really stood out to you in that conversation I had with Terry. So I
Dave Eng 32:46
think Terry and I have a lot of the similar characteristics growing up. Like we both played a lot of games growing up a lot of video games, a lot of computer games, I guess Terry played more d&d than I did, I wasn’t really into role playing in d&d games. But games have kind of been a part of our own, like personal history. Personally, though, I think that the what the work that Terry is doing is similar to what I’m doing right now, because we’re looking at games as applications for learning in both like, you know, school environments, as well as corporations. And there is really that big pressure of the return on investment whenever using games. Specifically, in a corporate environment. Schools are a little bit different, depending on who you’re working with, particularly the administrators for trying to demonstrate like, the effectiveness and efficacy of games, but in a corporate environment, the return on investment, the ROI is a big factor in whether or not you can use games. And if you can’t use games, the extent to which they’re used for learning and development.
Dustin Staats 33:48
Right, in that something I mentioned, ROI is just sounds so strange when I use that drop that term in education, just I don’t know, it has a word ring to it. So in your experience, and based on that conversation, what are some things that you’ve seen work well, to kind of leverage that ROI, either in the corporate world or in the classroom? Like, do you have any advice that you might give a teacher if they’re confronted with an admin about? Okay, well, yeah, sure, you can use this game in your classroom. But can you demonstrate or share with us some reasons why it might be worth doing in the class?
Dave Eng 34:25
Yeah, so one of them and I’ve talked about this before is using already made games and this is something that I studied in my dissertation before for cots, which is stands for CRTs commercially available off the shelf games. So this is not creating your own game. It’s not developing your own simulation. It’s using existing games right now that are available that you can buy in any retail environment, and use it for teaching, training, learning and development. That is really the heart of what gamespace learning is. It’s using games as a center for your learning experience. I know that you Dustin you You do a lot of this right now with your current stock a board game. So I think any educator would do well by looking at what you have to offer on the side right now. But in addition to that, you don’t always have to use tabletop games. One of my colleagues, and another person who’s presenting at the conference, Dr. Chris Stewart, he wrote his dissertation on Minecraft and how he used it for education. And I shared a link with you that talks about his particular study and how we use Minecraft for teaching and learning. But the main takeaway I want to give your audience is that you don’t have to use tabletop games that are commercially available and off the shelf, you can use video games, and Dr. Stewart used this in Minecraft education. So I recommend your audience, check out those resources that are in the description.
Dustin Staats 35:43
Yeah, that’s super awesome. I like you mentioned I, my background is using tabletop games. And mainly that stems from my experience teaching language and the social aspect of tabletop games, really kind of leaning into that and then kind of branching out into now other content areas, and really leveraging mechanics and tabletop games. So I’m excited to learn more about Minecraft. And I know, we the question I asked is, can be answered with probably just education, not Minecraft dotnet, the fact that there’s loads of resources on how Minecraft has been leveraged effectively for education. Awesome. So anything else to chat about before we head into our game?
Dave Eng 36:26
Yeah, I think one of the other things that Terry brought up before is a lot of corporate education is very much based on like compliance based training, which is just that you have watched a particular video or you’ve taken a particular course or read something, and that qualifies you to comply to whatever policy that they have. But you we can see that this is kind of an ineffective strategy for education and teaching, because you don’t really develop anything, you don’t really change your viewpoint, or really have something that is actionable or knowledgeable at the very end, you’ve just kind of like tick the box. And like, well, I would like to say that primary education or secondary education or higher education is different. Sometimes a lot of what teachers do is that box ticking, you know, just making sure that students have received, received content that is on the curriculum. That’s not to say that that is something that they want to do, but sometimes that they have to do. So I always rely on my interpretation of what learning is, which is learning is the transformation of experience into knowledge. And while it may be required of you to do some of these box ticking activities to really think about it, like if you’re an educator or trainer, how learning is reflected in your own practice, again, my definition that I use, like use for learning is the transformation of experience into knowledge and asking yourself, you know, how is the course that I’m teaching, how’s the class I’m teaching, helping my students transform this experience, into knowledge that they can use?
Dustin Staats 37:55
Right, and I think that’s a really good point. And that, I don’t know, one thing that I’ve kind of experienced, I think a lot of educators and teachers and I mean, even admin, and all across the spectrum of education probably have seen a lot of things in education that we need to change because of this pandemic. And really hoping that those box checking things are maybe not so important moving forward, when we kind of really go back into the classroom and take some things that worked well for the pandemic and still apply them in the future. Awesome. So we’re gonna head into our game. And this has kind of been a theme recently, this game, we’re gonna play wits and wagers.
And adapted by what’s in wagers the board game from norstar games. And I’m going to give you a question. And then you’re going to have to give me a numerical response. And if you are closer than a co host, you score point. And then I’m going to give you three more numerical responses. And you’ll have to choose your response or one of these three as closer. And if you choose your own, you are doubling down on your own. So you’ll get two more points. If you choose one that is not your own. You’ll just get one more point, if those are the closest or if the one you choose is the closest. Here’s the question, what is the largest number of different words spoken by one bird during its lifetime?
Dave Eng 39:29
Let’s see based on on why I know about trivia, I would have to say it is like a to can or a parrot or something like that. And the number of words I think it has spoken in this lifetime. I’m going to estimate at 350
Dustin Staats 39:45
All right, so 350 Let’s listen to Terry’s answer.
Unknown Speaker 39:49
Terry Pearce 39:53
I guess I guess it’s pretty high. I know there’s a couple of birds I can’t remember what they’re called the species but I’m saying that they’re pretty They, they learn a lot of different ways. I’m sure it’s an hundreds, and I’m gonna go with 462
Dustin Staats 40:12
or 162. Alright, so and you said 350? Yeah. Okay, so you got 350, he’s got 462. Here are three other numbers, you can choose to switch to a 415 or 89. Or you can double down on your number,
Dave Eng 40:32
I am going to double down on my number.
Dustin Staats 40:34
All right, let’s listen to Terry’s answer.
Terry Pearce 40:37
But to scam me that I’m the highest, but I think for the sake of 62, I’m gonna I’m gonna try and double down.
Dustin Staats 40:45
Alright, so you double down? So the answer is 800. So looks like Terry double down to you. And that’s kind of a kind of how that maybe we need to figure out how to switch that that rule. And if we go into the season 12 because you have no option to kind of go higher, right? Yeah, not 50 is the highest case. Yeah, that’s interesting. All right, well, well, we we play test and prototype and figure out what works and what doesn’t. So that’s cool. Dave, thank you so much. And if you mind just sharing one last time the conference because that’s coming up. And this will probably be one of the last episodes that we put out. Maybe before the conference comes out. We’ll have another episode for season 12, maybe the week of the conference. So again, can you share a little bit about where to go and how to sign up?
Dave Eng 41:33
Sure. So again, the game space learning virtual conference, it’s co hosted by me at university XP, Dave ang, and also the game space learning Alliance. It’s happening April 16, through 18 2021. And this is the premier professional event for designers, educators, entrepreneurs and instructors using games and games based learning for teaching, training, learning and development that’s happening again, the weekend of April 16. Through 18 2021. You can register and find out all of the confirmed speakers, which are over 30 of them at the website, GB l conference.com. Again, that website is and you’ll have to put in the www It’s www dot gbl. Conference calm. That’s GE bL gamespace learning conference.com.
Dustin Staats 42:22
Awesome. So thank you again, Dave. And if anybody wants to reach you, where would they go?
Dave Eng 42:26
Sure. Thanks, lesson. So the best place to reach me at is via the website. I’m at university XP comm You can also find me on Twitter, I am at Dave ang design. That’s da ve mg design calm. And you can also follow University XP on Twitter. That’s University underscore XP.
Dustin Staats 42:44
Awesome. Thank you again. Thank you, Dustin, thank you again, for coming on the show and chatting. I learned a bunch about the corporate world and it was a good chat. Would you mind with our listeners where they can find you? Or if you’re working on anything?
Terry Pearce 42:57
Yeah, absolutely. And likewise, you know, really enjoyed coming on the show. And thanks for having me. And yeah, so I mean, the main way probably to get a hold of me is via my website, where you can sign up for my mailing list, which would be awesome. I would love for people to just get updated on what I’m doing. I’ll tell you a couple of those things now. But that’s the easiest way to just keep up with with it. Or follow me up on LinkedIn. And LinkedIn is more of a corporate thing and an educated thing, probably, but I you know, I’m quite active on there. And so my website is until play.com. And Terry Pierce on LinkedIn. And and you know, if you get on the mailing list, and you find out about some of the products that have gone in the pipeline, so looking to particularly release a couple of decks of cards that I think could be really useful for designers and game designers soon. And I write a lot for Luda Gogi magazine who I know, you know, Sarah, who runs that. So I’ve got more collaboration with them coming up. And just an actually that I’m going to be speaking at the playful creative summit in April, organized by sandbar, which I’m really, really excited about. So there’ll be more details of that on our website and on the mailing list as well. So that’s a couple of things that are going on. There’s lots of different things. It’s quite piecemeal, kind of some of the work that I do is this project and that project and the other project, but I’m excited about a lot of them. Awesome.
Dustin Staats 44:30
Thank you so much for coming on.
Terry Pearce 44:31
No worries. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 44:37
That’s a wrap
Dustin Staats 44:39
that wraps up season 11 of our Board Gaming with Education podcast, we got to 133 episodes. It’s crazy. We started this journey about four years ago, and we’re moving into season 12. So if you want to keep up with us between seasons, be sure to sign up for our newsletter Board Gaming with Education calm. It’s about the second thing on our home. page or you can go to Board Gaming with Education comm backslash podcast dash community and you’ll be able to sign up and keep up to date with everything that’s going on between now and season 12 we’ll be back with season 12 on youtube you’ll be able to watch our video cast episodes as well as listen to our video cast episodes where you normally get your podcast whether that’s on itunes or cast box or whatever app you use you’ll be able to find it there as well but i recommend subscribing to our youtube channel because we will be releasing other content on youtube along with our normally scheduled monday podcast releases so again Board Gaming with education.com for our newsletter and as always thank you so much for listening to our podcast and teach better learn more and definitely play some more games recently we just played parks really really love that game very beautiful game we played it last about a year ago right before the pandemic so had a chance to play it and i’m excited to hopefully get on some real hikes here soon too so until next time
Board Gaming with Education 46:06
thank you for listening in this week if you liked what you heard be sure to let us know you can find us on social media as Board Gaming with Education or bga games or email us at podcast at Board Gaming with education.com if you want to support our podcast be sure to check out our support page on our website as always teach better learn more and most importantly play more thank you for listening and until next time