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Developing a Game-Based Curriculum feat. Hafiz Printer – 112


  • Episode Topics
    • Board Gaming with Education Holiday Promotion – 0:00
    • Welcome Rich Back to the Show – 1:28
    • Sponsor: The World Game – 3:49
    • Who is Hafiz Printer? – 4:31
    • Defining Game-Based Learning Curriculum – 5:22
    • Examples of Game-Based Learning Curriculum by Pulling the Game out of Content – 11:12
    • Student Experiences and Games – 20:43
    • Pitfalls and Challenges of Game-Based Learning Curriculum and How to Overcome them – 26:40
    • Don’t Reinvent the Wheel – 32:39
    • Rich Rejoins the Conversation – 38:06
    • Dustin, Dave, and Brian Play Is that for real a board game?! – 49:32

In this week’s episode of Board Gaming with Education Dustin is joined by co-host Rich Hill and guest Hafiz Printer to talk about developing a game-based curriculum. Hafiz Printer shares his experience, insights, and tips for developing a game-based curriculum such as practical examples and decisions he’s made for developing his game-based curriculum. With Hafiz’s expertise Dustin, Rich, and Hafiz explore game-based teaching and look at the many considerations when designing a game-based curriculum.

Games from this Episode [Links include games in our Board Gaming with Education Store or Amazon affiliate links]:

Hafis’s Game: Bagdadriseofpower.com 
Instagram: @printerinkgames

Thank you to Purple Planet Music for the wonderful contribution of their songs “Soul Train” and “Retro Gamer” for our Sponsorship and Interview Segments. These songs can be found in full on this music archive. Also, thank you to Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) for his creative commons 4.0 contribution of “Getting it Done” for our Game Segment.

Our Facebook Group for Educators: Games-based Learning, Gamification, and Games in Education

You can listen to us on Apple Podcasts (or any other platform you get your podcasts):



Board Gaming with Education Holiday Promotion – 0:00

Be sure to sign-up for our holiday promotion by joining our email list. You should receive more information on how to redeem your holiday offer next week (week of 11/16/20).




Sponsor: The World Game – 1:42

The World Game is a very interactive Geography game for 2 to 5 players that’s easy to learn. A fast playing adventure full of excitement. Leave home to embark on a race around the world. Pass famous landmarks on your way and win by having a stronger country fact.

Challenge others with world flags knowledge and by finding locations on the map. Pick up your action cards on the way to get ahead of or slow down other travelers. It is super engaging for kids and adults alike.

The game’s objective is to be the first player to finish the race around the world and cross the finish line. You move forward by winning with strong country facts or by answering geography challenges correctly.

Who is Hafiz Printer? – 4:31

Dustin introduces Hafiz Printer and his background in teaching.

Hafiz Printer has been a teacher for over a decade and is currently a Teacher Trainer.  A love of all things games inspired him to bring these into his teaching to engage his students.  He is a former Jackman Humanities Institute Fellow, focusing on Games and Play, and a recent recipient of The Prime Minister’s Award for Teaching Excellence Certificate of Achievement.  He has also presented on games and game-based learning at several conferences including the International Conference of Imagination in Education and the International Conference on Education, Social Sciences and Humanities.  However, his greatest accomplishment to date is winning second place in a beauty contest in a game of Monopoly.  Hafiz is also the co-founder of Printer Ink Games.   Their first game – a historical strategy game based in the Medieval Middle East and developed for the classroom – launches on Kickstarter in the summer of 2021.

Defining Game-Based Learning Curriculum – 5:22

Dustin and Hafiz explore the definition of game-based curriculum. Hafiz nails the definition in one sentence “It’s engaging students with new ideas, new information, new concepts, through games and game elements and playfulness.”

Example of Game-Based Learning by Pulling the Game out of the Content – 11:12

Hafiz looks at developing a game-based curriculum by working backwards and treating a game-based learning lesson as a lesson plan:

And so in this, what I what I would suggest is when you’re thinking about creating a game, for your classroom, and based on the curriculum, approach it very much like a lesson plan, or a unit plan. What is it that you want to cover? And then from there, and what are some of your objectives and outcomes, and then work backwards from there.

Student Experiences and Games – 20:43

Dustin and Hafiz chat about the experiences and prior knowledge their students bring to the classroom and what considerations need to be made for a game-based learning curriculum.

Pitfalls and Challenges of Game-Based Learning and How to Overcome Them – 26:40

Dustin and Hafiz chat about some pitfalls of game-based learning like the leaderboard, disinterest from falling too far behind in a game, and less efficient games for learning. They share some techniques for overcoming these pitfalls such as hidden leaderboards, a catch-up mechanism, and games that involve more players in the learning and playing process than others.

Don’t Reinvent the Wheel – 32:39

Hafiz and Dustin talk about games that you can use, like 7 Wonders and Timeline for a social studies/history classroom without having to come up with a brand new game. Also, play MORE GAMES!

Rich Rejoins the Conversation – 38:06

Rich rejoins the conversation with Dustin and they chat about some of the things Hafiz had to share. They chat about game-based learning as a means to an end and what a productive and efficient curriculum would look like. Since, Dustin, Hafiz, and Rich have taught in about a dozen different countries combined they also bring up the topic of using games in different parts of the world

Dustin, Rich, and Hafiz Play Is that for real a board game?! – 45:06

Dustin, Rich, and Hafiz play the game Is that for real a board game?!

Transcript of “Developing a Game-Based Curriculum feat. Hafiz Printer – 112”

Transcript automated and provided by otter.ai. [Using this link helps us continue to use this transcription service for future episodes.] Disclaimer: This is an automated transcript and may have errors in grammar, wording, and/or word choice.

Dustin Staats 0:00
Before we get started with this episode of Board Gaming with Education, I want to share our holiday promotion with you. So really excited for this we have different levels you can unlock based on how much you spend on our store. So the first level is $65, and you get $10. Off the next level, if you spend just five more dollars are going to throw in a free game, the game is the Christmas lights card game. If you’re interested in this game, you can add this game to your cart and you get it as a free gift. Thank you to 25th century games for sponsoring this portion of our holiday promotion. If you are not interested in the game, you can send us an email let us know we’ll be happy to add some edgy gamer points to your account instead. Also Next is our $95 which is free shipping on your entire order. So that means you’re going to get $10 off a free gift and free shipping. And the final level. If you spend $120, you get $20 off free shipping and a free gift. So be sure to check out our promotion, you’ll have to sign up for our email community to receive that offer. You can find that at Board Gaming with education.com. Alright, let’s get to the episode.

Board Gaming with Education 1:09
Board Gaming with Education, a podcast for anyone curious about how games and education mix. We explore various topics like game based learning gamification, and board games and the impacts they have on learning. here’s your host, Dustin Staats.

Dustin Staats 1:28
So I’m joined today by Rich Hill, a lot of you know rich, if you’ve listened to some of our earlier episodes on the podcast, he lived in Taiwan while I was there, and we started board game with. But this is Board Gaming with Education, we’ve kind of expanded since then. And rich ditched me for bigger and better things. He went back to the States when I was still living in Taiwan and taught in New York for a little bit. And then now he’s a social studies, high school teacher in Virginia. He has a lot of experience teaching around the world as well. And he’s done a bit of game based learning curriculum. So I’m excited for him and I to listen to the conversation today. Before I introduce our guests and our topic, rich, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?

Rich Hill 2:10
I feel like you nailed it like you know me, so well. I don’t know if I can add anything else. But yeah, I am a social studies teacher, teach 10th and 11th grade history class AP geography class. And yeah, it’s good to be back on the podcast.

Dustin Staats 2:27
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, something you left out is we’ve been starting a Madden franchise. That’s all I share. I share with a lot of people because we haven’t been able to play a lot of board game.

Rich Hill 2:37
So you know, I think you did make a mistake. I think you said we’re in 2025. We’re actually in 2024. Just Oh, he listed. Yeah.

Dustin Staats 2:46
Yeah. So Alright, so today we are listening to have ees about designing a game based curriculum. So him and I chat a little bit about this. And he shared some of his tips and insights about designing this type of curriculum. And rich and I are going to listen to that conversation. So heavys a little bit about him. He is an educator, currently a teacher trainer in Canada, and he’s also taught all over the world. So it’s kind of cool. Rich, myself and hobbies have taught in a lot of different countries combined. If you combine all of us, I want to say probably a dozen. I’m not 100% sure, but I know if he’s taught in I think three, at least, he didn’t tell me all of them. But I know at least three routes. You’ve taught him like four or five, does the US count us counts? Then I will say four, four, and then myself, I think four as well, four or five? I don’t know I’d have to think But anyways, let’s get to that conversation. And listen to what Hobbes has to share about game based curriculum. And before we get to the conversation, a quick word from our sponsor.

This episode of Board Gaming with Education is sponsored by the world game of fun and educational geography board game, exciting and fast playing game for everyone. It is on Kickstarter right now. I highly recommend checking it out. I know I will be backing it because it makes for a great, fun educational game that everyone can play, as well as an amazing classroom resource. As you explore the different cities, countries flags, you’re doing it on this really cool colorful board that comes with the entire world map. Again, it’s on Kickstarter, so you’re gonna have to go onto Kickstarter, check it out for yourself. The link will be in the show notes. And again, that’s the world game on Kickstarter.

Welcome to another topical discussion about how to develop a game based curriculum. I’m here joined by huff fece printer, and he is a educator. He’s been in the classroom for about 11 years in different parts of the world. And now he’s currently in Canada, doing teacher training. But he’s come on the show because he’s used a lot of game based curriculum in his teaching and he has actually developed a game that’s going to be coming to Kickstarter soon called Baghdad rise of power. It’s a 45 to 60 minute area control game based on the 11th century Middle East. It’s about dynasties vying for power, but he’ll likely share a little bit more about that, because we’re going to learn about his experience and his insights into game based curriculum. A piece, would you mind introducing yourself a little bit more?

Hafiz Printer 5:22
Yeah, absolutely. First off, thank you for having me on the podcast. So I, I grew up playing games, I love games. It was some one of the things that we did with with family, except my parents are both accountants. And so we had weird games growing up, we had this Canadian game called stock ticker, where you, you buy stocks, and you roll dice, and they go up and down. And then you pay dividends. And it taught you math. And as horrible as that sounds, it still remains one of my favorite games. And there’s just something about it, I remember, I was teaching in India, and I was going to be moving to London, in the UK to start doing some studies. And I came across a copy of Scotland Yard, and like, Oh, this is a giant map of London. Let me borrow this game. And I’ll play it. And then I’ll learn what it’s like to live in London. That was my thinking at the time. And so I did actually came in very helpful when I was there, not for the transit system at all. But like knowing where things were, which is great. And so I have just had this kind of affinity with games for a while. And my collection has been growing. And I wanted to bring into the classroom space, I like to teach the way I like to learn. And a lot of that had to do with just I was always bored in my classrooms when we just had to sit there and listen. And oftentimes we got lectures. And so as a history teacher, I wanted to find ways to make my classes come alive. And as a social teacher taught geography one year, and we had to teach about soil. And that’s history and geography are probably the two most dreaded one classes that are out there to teach to try and keep kids engaged. And so I would do things like bring in simulations, escape rooms, which are fantastic, because it got them to think like a historian and anthropologist. And so the next natural progression was a board game. And I actually, I was doing unit with my kids. And they finished, we finished a week early, and I’m like, Oh, I have a week to kill. So let me I gave them an assignment, they had to create a board game about everything, we learned that unit. And I thought it’d be fantastic. And then we got to the end, and I had 20 different versions of Monopoly. I thought to myself, okay, something, something’s not really gone right here. So let me try this out. I’ll make one I’ll model it, and then we can give it a try. And I very quickly realized that it’s a lot harder than it seems. But I’m stubborn. So I wanted to continue through the process and as a result, have made three different games, three different full board games for the classes, as you mentioned, one of them got a really good reception from the students, my family and friends have been enjoying it, we’ve been play testing it. And so it’s making its way to Kickstarter, hopefully this July, August time. And it’s been fantastic. Because I have this love of games that I’ve been able to bring in the class, to merge with my other loves of things like history and getting the students engaged and happy. And so, and I found that games were just a really fantastic way for them to connect with the material in a way that I hadn’t seen before. So that’s just a bit about me and my relationship, both with teaching and with games.

Dustin Staats 8:25
That’s awesome. And you shared a little bit about the experience that you had with your students and making their first or the first time you do, you brought into them this project of developing a board game. And it kind of I think it’s in line with what we’re going to talk about, when we’re hobby gamers, we expect everybody else to know what hobby games are, we don’t you know, they’re like, hey, make a board game. So you should be using like deck building and card drafting and all these different game mechanics. But if we haven’t introduced our students, those game mechanics, they’re not going to be very familiar with them. And I think there might be someone listening to this podcast that is not familiar with game based learning at all. Or maybe they’re just starting to get into it. They’re trying to learn how and what steps they might take to implement it. So before we kind of talk about that, would you define game based learning? What do you see as game based learning and game based curriculum? Absolutely. I think that’s fantastic question.

Hafiz Printer 9:22
So I, I think you hit the nail on the head. People have different experiences with games. And so if your perception of board games are the ones that you grew up with things like clue and monopoly games that are just rolling dice, that’s your idea of game based learning. It’s let me make a game where you roll the dice and you move and you might have to answer a question and that’s how I’ll do things in the classroom space. If you broaden it, though, it’s really what it is. It’s engaging students with new ideas, new information, new concepts, through games and game elements and place playfulness. And so that second question about well, what is game based curriculum, there’s a phenomenal book. It’s actually about video games, video games and learning, teaching and participatory culture in the digital age by Kurt Squire. And in there, I think it’s page 19. There’s a fantastic, quote, good games, find the game in the content. And I think that’s key, using the ideas of games to approach ideas from the classroom in new ways and the content in new ways. One of the last things we want to do is force content, it’s not going to make things authentic for the students, and then it’s not going to get across what we’re hoping to do, it’s going to just feel more like a chore or kind of clunky. And so again, game based learning, how can you bring in these elements of, of games, to enrich the learning and get students to engage with it in a different point of view than they normally do?

Dustin Staats 9:39
That’s really awesome. I like the couple definitions you gave. And I’m looking at Kirk Squire, it looks like he does a lot of different research in the game based field too. So that’s really awesome. And you mentioned, engaging them through play or pulling the game out of the content. Do you have an example of that? What that looks like?

Hafiz Printer 11:12
Yeah, so the game that we spoke about earlier? And this kind of gets to how do you plan your How do you plan a game or create a game from the content, I was teaching World History class, and we have this one section, and we’re looking at the middle of the Middle East. And there was a fantastic section, it was talking about politics, and the movements of people, and the ports of Alliance building, and all of this great stuff, which is really, really great if you are into politics, and like very detailed, almost a game of thrones esque kind of level of understanding. But if you’re a student, the most boring 20 pages you would ever read in the class. And so myself and a few other teachers, we sat down, and we, this is gonna, they’re gonna revolt. If we do this one thing, we have to do something to get them engaged. And so we started brainstorming, and we started thinking about, what did we want to get across? And so in this, what I what I would suggest is when if you’re thinking about creating a game, for your classroom, and based on the curriculum, approach it very much like a lesson plan. So or a unit plan, what is it that you want to cover? And then from there, and what are some of your objectives and outcomes, and then work backwards from there. So what we ended up doing was brainstorming a whole bunch of these large concepts and to get to this idea of an overarching, understanding the Lord arc of history. And so things like, you know, city building was important, because as a new ruler, when you came into a space, you wanted to establish yourself, and to get everyone, all the local peoples to kind of accept you, you build things up, because they’re like, Oh, this person’s great. They’ve been building around, if you took over an area, you didn’t just burn the entire thing to the ground, or hopefully you didn’t, and so you would appropriate, and then you would add on and you would develop the city more. So is there a way that we could have some sort of element in the game, where if someone builds up part of the city, and you come in, and you can build and it shows these layers of history, historical events, were another thing you know, there was there’s a large part of history that we wanted to cover, and things changed at these crossroads. So these turning points in history. So is there a way that we could take certain historical elements and make them part of the gameplay? Hey, you know, this happened in history, and it ended up leading to this, can we make that something that happens in the game for each person playing that will shift the way that they have to play or the way that people interact with them? And so we thought through all of these different pieces, and we wrote them all down, and then we started brainstorming, and we started thinking about exactly what you mentioned before some of the different mechanics is this going to be a game where you’re moving around the board? Well, we wanted to use a map as our board, because now they’re getting geographical skills, they’re able to see these different things, and these different places and these different names. And one of the things that I love about board games, they’re fantastic ways to bring in multiple forms of text. And by that I don’t mean written pieces, I just mean different materials. And so bringing in primary sources in this visually, historically, and so I knew there was certain individuals, we wanted to introduce them to, okay, cool. They are now the players that you that’s who you’re going to be playing as you’re going to be part of an empire. This is your leader. And so what’s the point of you having leader Okay, he should give you some kind of advantage and it should be tied to that person. So if your historical person was a patron of the arts, and they were very much about building universities and bringing scholars at the core, great, your advantages, you get a free building, which is going to be a library if so and so was a military General, fantastic. Let’s you can play as the military general for this empire and your advantages. You get five extra military pieces when you play him. And so we were able to introduce individual peoples that we wanted to then lead the students on understand more about down the line, we’re able to bring in some historical events that we put in the game that were these turning, turning points. And the way that we did that was we thought about, well, is there a way that this can actually mess up someone’s game plan? Can I have this and play it on someone and now, you know, this historical event happened, you now got blockaded by the Byzantines, you have no trade, you lose all your money, which is going to impact what you’re able to do. And can I then also use this as a way for negotiating because it was a lot of negotiating that took place, and I use this to blackmail someone to work with me. And one of the pieces that I noticed with my students is, there’s certain things that are difficult for them to understand why did this person backstab this person if they had an alliance? Or why would people be able to move this way or do that? Well, by getting them to play a game, where they’re now making decisions, they’re doing these things, they’re able to see actually, it’s in my best interest to have an alliance at this point time. But it’s also in my best interest to not have that Alliance. on that next turn, I’m going to shift here. And a fantastic thing about board games is, and one of my students actually brought this up was, it’s almost as though in any kind of game, you get to live in experience that would have taken your whole lifetime to do before. So if you’re playing this game, you’re going through 20, 30 years worth of history in 45 to 50 minutes, which is how long the game was meant to be because I had a 75 minute block, just thinking through what are the big pieces that I want the students to learn about? And understand. I just jotted those down big concept big ideas, who are the people? What are the events? What are terms that they need to know? And then are there pictures and primary sources that I could bring in? Can I have a quote from someone and that kind of sets the stage and the real book Can I can I have specific buildings that were built at that time, and just have that as being something that you can develop. And so each element that I wanted them to know more about? If I could, I found a way to make it into a game. So either is something that you collected, something that you made, something that influenced the decision that you had, or something that impacted the way that you played with one another. And once I had all these things brainstormed and written down, then I tried to associate different things with them, as mentioned before, and just thinking through. So the first game that I made was very much you roll the dice and you move, I settled on that, because I need a I need a way for them to move, how am I going to get them to do it is it going to be a spinning wheel is it going to be a dice, in the most current game, there’s different cards that you pick up. And so your gameplay actually changes based on how other people are playing. So if Dustin picks up a whole bunch of military cards, I’m going to start picking up a whole bunch of these other cards here to make sure that I can, you know, be responsive to what he might do, which is very much about what history is back and forth, where you’re watching other people and doing these things, whether it was thousand years ago to the Cold War to what’s happening currently with certain electoral things. And so making them that point apparent to them after class that so the game itself was one piece, that debrief is another. And going back to that concept of looking at it like a lesson plan, you can look at a game in the classroom in one of two ways, you can look at it as a means to an end. Or you can look at it as an end in and of itself. So I’ll give an example of each an end in and of itself, maybe you’ve created a game and it’s a review game, they’ve already learned all these different things, you want to be able to assess the learning, get them to create something engaged with something so that you can assess a means to an end is the game that I was just describing. I wanted them to learn all of this new concepts, all these new concepts. And then I wanted them to be able to connect with these later on. So this was my way of getting them to where I needed them to be. And so it’s important to differentiate which one you want it to be because that can influence the way that you’re going to design your game, or how involved it’s going to be.

Dustin Staats 19:05
Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s really awesome. There’s a lot lot to unpack there. First, I love how your your student had shared the fact that playing a game lets you live through 2030 years of history because I’m like currently relating to that, because of playing Madden, Madden football on PlayStation, and we’re doing a franchise with some friends or like, it’s like your 2028 right now. Right seven years ahead. But yeah, I love how you talked about leaning into different game mechanics to target different learning outcomes. I think that’s really important. It’s not necessary because when you do game based learning, you’re kind of either looking for a way to tie in learning outcomes or you’re looking for a way to make those learning outcomes a bit more engaging. And something that I’ve done in the past two is look at a lesson and the lesson I was looking at is negotiation and the ESL classroom and For Business Class and looking at how can I make this bland textbook where they read dialogue more engaging, and I decided, well, I can create a game. And what game mechanic will I use? Well, if I use hidden information, it requires them to talk with other groups about what goal they need to complete the secret agenda for their company leans into that targeted language learning outcome where they have to use this dialogue that’s in the book. But through a game based setting, you really touched on that as far as looking at the dynamics and politics, right and negotiation and why someone might stand with a certain group of people at one point, but then it might be in their better interest to work with another at a different time.

Hafiz Printer 20:43
And you just reminded me of something, as you were saying that what when you think about learning itself, that end goal, once you have all the information, and you can engage in that intellectual conversation, that’s actually really interesting. And once students are there, they’re engaged, they want to be able to move through that. It’s that first part, that’s the part that’s like pulling teeth sometimes, let’s get them the information and the ideas and the concepts that they can then use to have that deeper engagement at the end. And games do a really wonderful job of making that palatable, making that interesting. One of the things that I’ve noticed is, now that I’ve shifted from being a teacher in the classroom, to doing pedagogy to now, being a teacher trainer, and working with adults and andragogy is, I don’t come in with a lot of background experiences and understands and there they can draw on those for their own knowledge. When students come in, we talk very much about, you know, what’s their prior knowledge, what are the prior experiences, a lot of them don’t have that. And so something like history is really hard to get them to tie into these pieces, because you’re asking them to connect to something they may not have experienced yet, a lot of my love the history started later in high school, and then in university because I started to have more life experience. And so something like a board game is fantastic. Because essentially, what you’re doing is you are creating an experience for the students. And through the game. They’re now personalized, what’s going on. And so I talked before about games being a means to an end, the game that I’ve been speaking about the Baghdad one, I like to think of it almost as a what if history, so the students have the chance to put themselves in the role of someone, they maybe got backstabbed or one, whatever else. But now they were invested in what took place. So when I say hey, do you guys want to see what actually took place? Let’s open up the book. They’re like, Yeah, because there’s a vested interest to say, Hey, I, you know, I did it better than they did back then. Or hey, you know, I punked you in real life and look what happened then to it was meant to be, and then we can talk about that a little bit in the debrief. And the thing about games is, there’s all these different pieces that are educationally really good in there. And so, if you think about it, when you think about a game, you, you start off, and there’s a goal, there’s an aim, right, and so very much like an education we have, we want to get them somewhere. And so learners are working towards a goal as they’re playing through the game. And you as the teacher deciding what that is, again, is it the means to an end in and of itself. And now they’re creating that personalized emotional connection to the subject matter where they may have had something like that before. And a great thing about this, too, is even if they had something before, you can give them a different point of view to explore as well. And so you have a chance to broaden their horizon. And you can do that in the same game. If they if they were to play the game again, down the line, maybe they take on a different person or a different role. And does that now and in the debrief that changes, you know, did that change the way that you approach doing X, Y and Z, it also shifts things. So something like in a history in history, when we think it has we tend to think of names and dates and facts and all these boring things. We think of the the what’s where his games allow you to focus on the whys in the house. This is how things happen. And this is why things happen. Because you’re the decision makers, they were able to shape what ended up taking place. And that shaping is really big, because students have this competitive edge they and you’re able to draw on that. So what I’ve noticed quite often when I’ve had the chance to be in in teachers classrooms, where they’re trying to bring in game based learning, or I’ve had the chance to present on it or do trainings in schools is teachers oftentimes will use something like trivia like a Jeopardy game or monopoly again, to engage students. And it works really well because kids do like that competition. I would steer a little bit further away from those because if you think about those, they don’t really get the kids to have a deeper understanding engagement of what the material is something like Jeopardy is asking lower order questions, it just recall. That’s not to say that it can’t be done in an interesting way. But oftentimes, that’s a bit of a default for people. We can still take that idea of, of using competition and build it into other games, though, that we can bring into the classroom space. Another great way that games and education work really well together is that idea of feedback, you get instant feedback in whether it’s a video game or board game. And so if you make a decision, and it, it messes you up down the line that’s on you. And you’re able to see that and then if you could learn from that fantastic, and if you can’t, it’s going to be an interesting rest of the game for you. But oftentimes, the others at the table around you are going to point it out. And that leads to the next piece, which is games are social, and learning a social, and so and it can be collaborative. So as you mentioned, with the hidden information, you could be working together on a task for something, you could be working against one another, you could have a hidden goal, which are some of the different elements that you can build into the games that you’re thinking of. But it’s more fun when you learn together, rather than saying, Okay, let’s open up a book and read and this is coming from someone whose last name is printer, I love books I love reading was very individual, when you’re doing that approach games allow you to learn with other people, which is fantastic. And it ties this idea of being student centered, it’s not the teacher at the front of the room saying, hey, okay, let me spend this five minutes lecturing about policies and diplomacy and so forth, you get a chance to do that. And so you have all of these fantastic things that we’re aiming for in education, that are encapsulated very well, within game based learning, whether it’s a board game, or video game, or simulation or escape room, or whatever approach you want to take for your classroom.

Dustin Staats 26:39
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love how you brought up the Jeopardy games, I share the same sentiment, I think they can be done. And they’re not the worst thing to do in class. But there are some pitfalls with it. And you mentioned a couple. Another one can be a lot of times a group gets so far ahead. And when that happens, the other groups tend to not care. And a good game has something called a catch up mechanic, which allows the groups to kind of every player to kind of stay pretty close. So you don’t really know who’s winning. I mean, depends on what kind of player you are that you are, I like some of the games that really do really beat you down if you’re making some poor decisions. But that’s me personally. And that’s not in the classroom. I’m in the classroom, maybe I can see, you know, students, if they’re not going to win, they can easily give up playing if they give up playing they’re giving up the learning there.

Hafiz Printer 26:40
Yeah, or they might even just shut down like, why am I no one wants to feel bad, and especially in the classroom space. But yeah, some of these things are important, especially with the shift to online. kahoots been really big quizzes has been really big. There’s all these different quizzing tools that gamify they take elements of gamification, and they use it, whether it’s a, you know, having the scores or getting a streak or being able to see where you tally against other people. And it’s being used more and more and more. And it’s it’s not bad as a review tool. But if is it? Are the students really learning as they go through that it’s fantastic as a review tool? But if you think, again, about that engagement level, are where are we on Bloom’s? Are they just are they at this level here where they’re just bringing up their their knowledge and repeating things, a board game can get them to that other level where they’re, you know, synthesizing the information, making observations, and just really applying a lot of these different skills and ideas in a deeper way, which means they’re going to be able to make sense of it in a in a much deeper way. And you can have that same pitfall with board games as well. So I mentioned earlier, my students all made different version of Monopoly. And I’ve seen teachers do that as well. In fact, when I was working on this one game, I mentioned, we brainstorm with other teachers, and one teacher needed it that coming week. And so they just created a monopoly version. And we sat down with a conversation afterwards. And what it is that just renamed each of the spaces after different cities, and some of the cards just had people’s names in them. Like Okay, what, tell me about the game, like what do you want them to learn through that. And through the conversation, they had a difficult time sharing what that was, essentially, it was just it was just monopoly. But with Middle Eastern names. It’s no different from buying the those themed monopolies that you buy out there. So the students didn’t really learn about what we wanted them to learn about. They just played Monopoly. And it happened to have a bunch of different names on it.

Dustin Staats 29:32
Right? That’s like, I mean, we look at something we were talking about earlier is grabbing the content out of the game here. It’s monopoly could be great for looking at certain things like probability. I know some teachers who have looked at economics where they played different versions of monopoly, like communism, monopoly, the regular monopoly and a different one. I don’t know I don’t remember the example. But I mean, there’s a there’s a lesson plan on the internet. If you just search Monopoly economics lesson plan, you’ll probably find it on Google. But yeah, you also mentioned quizzes and Kahoot. And I think, again, those games do some things that that are better than maybe other times of gamification, because we talked about the ketchup mechanic and losing students. But what Kahoot and quizzes do at least quizzes I’m not sure about Could I use quizzes more is it hides the leaderboard. So it only shows you who’s near you. Right. So you’re always competing with the people near you. And then after the end of the game, it’ll show the total leaderboard. So it’s a way to kind of hide that information, because then students will get discouraged. And you mentioned the streaks too.

Hafiz Printer 30:43
And there’s, there’s certain things that you can do in an online space, like we’re gonna, we’re trying the best we can with the tools that we have, it’s the strangest thing that we’re all of a sudden, within a few weeks. Last year, everyone had to switch to online and just learn all these new tools. And but there’s a lot of things that we used in the classroom prior to that still work really well online that that building a concept of game based learning. So taking a game that already exists something like taboo, and then just switching in with the words from your curriculum, your content, they’re thinking about it in a very different way. If they’re doing that, because they have to come up with different ways to get people to understand what they’re coming, what they’re trying to say. Same thing with Pictionary, where they’re using a different modality, they’re drawing it out. So these are games that we’ve been playing for years and years and years and been using in the classroom for years, years and yours, which are fantastic, because it shifts it up. It’s not again, just that lower order thinking, because they really have to think through what it is they’re doing. And it works really well online as well, because you can use the whiteboard on zoom, for instance, or something like auto draw whatever else it might be.

Dustin Staats 31:45
Yeah, I have two two games for you and anyone else listening to that kind of build on those ideas of taboo and one’s trap words, it’s, it is taboo. But the other team is creating the trap words, the words you cannot say. So there’s an extra layer of learning going on. While both teams are involved in the game. They’re involved in learning instead of just the one person with the the card and taboo. And another one is monikers which is. It is taboo, I know you’re shaking your head like you’ve played it. So I think you’re familiar but you have I think you can say a certain number of words the first time or you can say as many as you want to try to get the person to guess the word. And you can only use one word to get the person to guess the word. And then the third round, you can only use like charades like actions to get them to guess the word. So it’s very much a mastery level of whatever maybe you’re using terminology in a content area or vocabulary.

Hafiz Printer 32:39
That brings up a really great point too, which is you don’t have to reinvent reinvent the wheel. If you want to bring board games into the classroom space, you can look at ones that are already out there and modify them to fit your classroom in a way that makes sense. So something like monikers or taboo Pictionary work really well. But depending on what you’re teaching, there may already be something out there. And I know through your website, and through the blog, and everything else, you recommend things that work really well for the classroom space. And so just thinking for history classes, there’s there’s I’ve brought in seven wonders into my class, which is quick civilization deck building game, to have the students play through that and see, you know, what’s the importance of building up if you want to do through science and what military and so forth. But there’s things like timeline, which is literally that you’re building a timeline, there’s a picture, and on one side, there’s just the picture on the back sides of the picture and the date, and you need to work together to see okay, where does this fit on the timeline. And it gets more and more difficult as more people add things on. But it gives us scope of history. And there’s other fantastic games that are very educational. Freedom is a game that I bought, and I absolutely love. It’s about the Underground Railroad and trying to get enslaved peoples to Canada. And it’s the most stressful game I have ever played. Because you have to make very difficult decisions because you can’t save everyone. So you need to decide how are you going to? How are you going to get the most people. But then you’re thinking through some of these very stressful things. And you’re seeing what’s taking place and the games is very smart in the way that it does things too, because the cubes are just generic cubes that are supposed to represent people. And they bring in historical people and events into the game and you move through time periods where you need to get to abolition. And so you’re learning about stuff as you’re going through while you feel the stress of what it would have been like to go there and you’re seeing the slave catchers move as you move in. It’s I highly recommend it for anyone who is into history but also as an example of what a history board game or an educational board game Look like, because it’s that that was one of the games that when I first played, I’m like, I need to start making board games to teach larger concepts in the classroom space. And so that being said, you don’t need to make your own board game, there’s a lot that are out there that you can draw connections to, and bring it to the class for different periods of time. If you got five minutes, you could do timeline and history class, if you have a 70 minute block, you might be able to bring in a longer game. But it’s not a if you want to do game based learning. It’s not there’s no gatekeeping. It’s not like oh, you have to make your own game. Otherwise, you’re not doing game based learning. There’s loads of things that are out there. And you mentioned some lesson plans, things like monopoly monopoly, the history of Monopoly is super interesting, because it started off to teach people about the evils of capitalism. And now Parker bros makes millions and millions of dollars off of this game, which I think is super ironic. But yeah, there’s don’t feel limited by what does game based learning look like in your classroom space, use the resources that are out there. And if you’re interested in creating, you’ll give it a try. And there’s lots of really great communities that are out there. This podcast is a fantastic example of that, of ways that you can develop that get feedback and learn from that, and then use it in your classroom space.

Dustin Staats 36:19
Definitely. And I think that brings us to I think the most important words of advice that we can give anyone is to play more games. I think, yeah, I think it’s tough to come up with ways to incorporate game based learning without having a library of games and game mechanics and game ideas to draw from for sure.

Hafiz Printer 36:42
Yeah, and you can think about what are the parts of games that you like best and build those into your games. And that’s when I first started off, I would think about them, like, you know, I really like this gambling aspect from this thing, I’m gonna bring in that element of chance here. And I like the fact that I can use this thing to make people move around that doesn’t involve decks. And so you can take bits and pieces and use them to kind of recreate your own Frankenstein’s monster version of the game that you want to create. And then as you start trying new things out, it gets a little bit better and a little bit better. And then you’re able to create something that the students are just gonna absolutely love. And then they’re gonna beg you to play the next class in the next class, and you tell them, no, because you have to get through the rest of the curriculum. But you already have them hooked. And I think one of the it, there’s that common saying, always leave them wanting more. It it works, whether it’s show business, or if it’s education, because in education, we are entertainers. And if we can edutainment, then I think we’re doing a good job.

Dustin Staats 37:41
Right? Yeah. And speaking of entertainment, we’re going to move into our game. And we’re talking about a lot of different games. So I’m going to use something that I’ve used before. So I hope you haven’t seen it. I’m going to ask a Hafiz to stick around while I bring rich back to have a follow up discussion before we get into our game for the episode.

Alright, we’re back and rich. That was I think that was really good conversation. I learned a lot from Harvey. So I had my pen and paper down. I was taking notes over some of the first one of the some of the first things you thought about listening that conversation.

Rich Hill 38:19
Yeah, I thought it was great. I mean, I think he definitely gives a lot of good insight into, again, more of like a practical way to kind of use, like great board games for the students. And you can, I’m sure you as well, Dustin, you’ve taken so many of these teacher training things. And you can totally tell like, he knows exactly like the points that like the teachers want to hear. And yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Dustin Staats 38:44
Yeah, he definitely seemed knowledgeable on pedagogy as far as what’s important in classrooms. And he’s teaching in Canada. So I wonder what types of things might overlap, what types of things might not when it comes to what is valued in education and either country, a couple things that I want to kind of talk about, or at least the first thing, he chats about using game based curriculum as a means to an end, or an end in and of itself. What do you think about that? And do you have any examples of sometimes you’ve done that?

Rich Hill 39:17
Yeah, you know, I also wrote that down, I thought that was pretty interesting, like the ends to means I feel like it’s, it’s more difficult, right? I find, you know, especially when you have like these statewise types of exams, that during these times, too, if you’re hybrid or if you’re virtual, it’s it’s stressful a little and, personally, I tend not to teach content with board games. I usually do it as a review, you know, everyone in their professions are trying to get better some ways, I probably should take some more risks by giving them the way he was talking about like a proper good game to create, to kind of help with, you know, the students actually getting the content with the skills that they need, I understand it, it just, you know, this particular year, I will probably wait. But perhaps the next year I will, you know, go for it. And also just like, like having a rubric, I think would go a long way. Like, I don’t know, like just having like a framework of understanding what would the best methods be? Or like, what, like, as a teacher, I just imagine, like, I would like to know, what would the best type of board game would be rather than like us talking about the monopoly type of game? And yeah, I think I’ve seen teachers over the years, kind of like, tell the students as well, I’ll create a board game or something. And that one does come up a lot. So I think like, helping students and helping teachers just like see what it would look like, in like, a practical sense. Least that would help me. What were you thinking?

Dustin Staats 40:51
Right, I tend to agree with, with what you had said, as far as looking at a framework. I mean, that’s, I think that’s the key right there. There. There is a lot of research about game based learning gamification and the value of it in education. However, there’s not a lot that’s made its way into, quote, unquote, mainstream teaching. Right. So it’s, it’s not something that’s seen as substantial for curriculum. And it’s tough. It’s I think that’s what we’re kind of doing here is figuring out Well, these things do work, and how can we show that they work? How can we create a curriculum where, yes, there’s the statewide test? How can we show that this curriculum takes that student from point A to point B, on the test? And it’s tough, I think there needs to be some sort of framework, like you mentioned, and as far as the Monopoly game, I was, I kind of I’ve torn with that, too. Because, yes, it’s, it’s not the most exciting game. But there might be still some learning taking place. If you’re the student designing a game like monopoly, through the design process, right, you’re kind of thinking about what pieces, you might want to involve, what the card like the chance cards might do, what the pieces on the board might do. And you kind of feel a sense of ownership in that. So you feel a sense of ownership in your learning. And I though, I do agree with you and hobbies, that there can be better ways of incorporating, incorporating game based or game design, I guess, where the end product can be a little bit more interactive for the players afterwards to and engaging process for the people who play the game afterwards, too.

Rich Hill 42:41
I guess it also comes down to like the age of the students, right? Like, for 11th grade students, I would hope that they would be a little more creative in, like, their thought process, their problem solving skills, things like that, even like, you know, you guys also talked about like Bloom’s taxonomy, you know, like the top ones are like create something. And I think creating a board game is definitely a creative skill that we want our students to have for sure. But when it comes to like, I guess like a elementary school students, they would probably need a little more guidance. But you know, they probably would also be able to make some higher level questions, higher level board games,

Dustin Staats 43:22
Right, I think it comes down to again, to a couple things, one that you mentioned the age range of students, but also prior knowledge, something that Hobbes had talked about to prior knowledge of board games, right? They need to know some of these game mechanics. Imagine if you ask adults to design a board game, and they’ve only played Monopoly, or clue. It’s gonna be tough. I think they might think of some clever ways to innovate the Monopoly board game. Yeah, I don’t know. I try to think about, it’s hard for me to go back in time and think about my experience with board games before. I’ve kind of learned a lot in the hobby.

Rich Hill 44:02
I think one good aspect. I mean, I’m sure that you know, the audience of you out there. You listen to this podcast, because you do believe that board games are an important part in a classroom. And I do really want to emphasize like the social part of it, right? Like, especially these days, I think students do need to have that social aspect. Have that competitive nature, and I think it will go a long way and just like, you know, content decide, just like a fun social thing that kind of helps with their mental health.

Dustin Staats 44:34
Right. And you just had me think about a topic for a potential future episode is designing remote games for social growth as far as like, because there are so many students that are starting at a new school this year. And if you’re online, imagine yourself being a new student online in a digital environment trying to make friends if a game was put there to be able to nurture those relationships with your students in a virtual, or with your peers in a virtual environment, I think that would be really huge. But that’s I think that’s another, another topic. But I want to ask you something. And I’m also curious to hear from anyone listening, because I know we do have listeners over the world in Asia and Europe in the US and the Americas and Latin America. I’m curious, because you, myself, and hobbies have all taught in different parts of the world. And I wonder if games tend to lend themselves better? in different classrooms around the world? Or if it’s a universal thing that just tends to work? No matter where you are at in the world? I mean, obviously, we can’t answer that question perfectly, because we haven’t taught everywhere in the world. But I wonder if there are some advantages to different places to using games?

Rich Hill 45:52
Well, I guess my first thing that comes to mind at first is, you know, kids are kids, people are people, like people like having fun, people are competitive. I like to think people are curious and want to learn as well. So I like on the basic level basis level, I would say, it probably doesn’t matter. Maybe if you like looked into more like conservative cultures versus more, more diverse cultures, things like that, maybe, maybe there will be difference. But again, my first thought is now you know, people want to have fun people want to be competitive and winning a game. But what about what do you think?

Dustin Staats 46:34
Yeah, I think I had when I was listening to, well, actually, I think I thought about this when we I was interviewing him in the middle of an interview, I’m like, I’m gonna have to interview rich for this episode, because we all share kind of a similar background as far as teaching around the world. And then you’re also a social studies teacher. But I had maybe thought that, yes, it’s universal. I think games like you said, games are games, people are people we love to have that form of engagement and games really can engage people. But I think maybe some games or different types of games, or different types of game mechanics, might lend themselves better to different parts of the world. And I think from my experience, one thing I’ve leaned into is the collectivism, nature versus the individual ism nature in Asia and the US think us students tend to be more comfortable with competition, we’re in Asia, maybe not so much. And my first year teaching I had made the students compete against the teacher. So instead of them competing amongst themselves, I think that really helped encourage them to help their classmates help their peers perform better in class, and it helps me to manage their behavior to get good.

I’m gonna ask you more questions about that? Or are you? Are you the one who asked the questions?

No, no, you This is all for, we listen to the conversation. And we’re just trying to explore a little bit more.

Rich Hill 48:02
When you talk about like collectivism versus individualism. Do you think that is based on like, the culture that was around them? Or do you think that is based on like other teachers that are in their schools that teach would teach differently than you?

Dustin Staats 48:15
Right, like my culture kind of mixing with their culture? And whether it’s because of teachers than already have a basis for how the classroom functions versus me who’s coming in with a different basis for our classroom functions?

Rich Hill 48:28
Yeah, there you go. So you asked the questions better than?

Dustin Staats 48:32
Yeah, I don’t know. That’s a good question. I don’t know if I have the answer for that. I know that it works really well, when I did it. Because not only were they behaving in class and not talking when they weren’t supposed to not speaking in Korean, because there aren’t allowed to speak Korean. They’re supposed to only speak English, they were very much making sure their peers were following the structure of the classroom that I had set for them based on them being able to do better in the game.

Rich Hill 49:00
I asked that question, because it just, I’m curious, right? Like, I taught international schools where, you know, students are coming from all over the world in the class. And I didn’t really see too much of a difference. And maybe it’s just like their background, that they are kind of they been all over the world themselves that they tend to be more individualism. But I don’t know if anyone has a study or something that they want to send us. I would love to read about it, because I’m actually pretty curious about that.

Dustin Staats 49:32
Yeah, I’m sure there’s either some stuff already out there. And definitely some stuff probably soon about game based learning and different culture comparisons. I don’t know. Be curious to learn too. And again, if you’re listening and you’ve taught somewhere else in the world, we’d love to hear your story. You can comment on this episode on Facebook, or you can just send me an email. I’d love to hear what you have to share. And that’s podcasts at Board Gaming with education.com. Alright, rich, so we’re gonna play a game. It’s called Is that for real? a board game?

Rich Hill 50:02
Oh, man.

Dustin Staats 50:03
So I’ve already I’ve already asked a VC these questions will actually they’re not questions. I read him descriptions of three different board games. And he has to guess whether it’s really a board game or not. I made it whether it’s,

Rich Hill 50:16
I feel like this is unfair, because he like he creates board games. Yeah, it might be a little unfair, but I have faith in you. And I think you’re going to get at least two correct. Okay, how many other

Dustin Staats 50:28
Three. I’m not gonna tell you how many he got correct.

Rich Hill 50:31
Well, for kind of you,

Dustin Staats 50:33
You’re gonna have to listen to that person to see if you want. All right, but I’m going to play the rules. And the first game.

I’m going to read you three different descriptions of board games. And you’re going to have to tell me if it is a real board game or not. And you’re going to be competing with the person who is going to follow up with our conversation, which will probably be rich, because he’s also a history teacher. So I’m excited to have him listen to our conversation.

Hafiz Printer 51:07
And this is a real world example of using competition to just build interest. I love it.

Dustin Staats 51:13
Right? Yeah. So you can you also have to listen to the episode to see if you will. And let’s see. So, I’m going to start with this one. Soda Pop rivals, you must develop the best soda pop recipe by drafting ingredient cards to create the tastiest recipe. Use your your use your unique player abilities to by tapping into your family secret recipe to create recipe combinations that impact your sodas, taste and popularity. Is that for real a board game?

Hafiz Printer 51:46
I would totally play it. I don’t think it’s a real

Dustin Staats 51:50
What do you think rich?

Rich Hill 51:53
soda pop rivals. Um, you know what? I’m gonna say, yes.

Dustin Staats 51:59
It is not a board game. Oh. Oh, yeah, that one’s not.

Rich Hill 52:04
I think you’re onto something. Yeah.

Hafiz Printer 52:13
There’s a game called shy though. That’s same concept but with teeth.

Dustin Staats 52:17
Very similar. I think I was thinking about a description the right one I was gonna do ice tea. But then I was like, well, that’s I’ll go soda. All right, the next one, smartphone Inc. You become a CEO of one of the largest smartphone producing companies in the time when smartphones were only beginning to conquer the world. Research technologies develop your factory, build your worldwide office network and outpace your competitors. Is that for real? a board game?

Hafiz Printer 52:45
Oh, torn on this one. I’m gonna go with real

Dustin Staats 52:48
And rich. What do you think?

Rich Hill 52:49
I don’t. I hope hope it’s not because I’m gonna say something mean about it. I don’t think I would like that board game. So I’m gonna say no, it’s not a board game.

Dustin Staats 52:57
It is a board game. Yeah, those two I think are tough.

Rich Hill 53:03
Oh, boy. Do you want to cut that or something? Just in case there’s sponsor something. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah.

Dustin Staats 53:12
No, I mean, yeah, yeah. Your personal opinions. It’s, it sounds like a weird thing. That’s what this whole. The whole idea this. Here we go.

Rich Hill 53:20
Like, my problem is I didn’t get a smartphone until like, later in life, and I never really had like,

Dustin Staats 53:27
Alright, number three. It is a real board game. Yes. I was wondering if you had known it because it was kind of popular and Kickstarter, kind of not like super popular. But

Hafiz Printer 53:37
I have been have tried to avoid Kickstarter, at least for the last few months, because I’ve already spent my Kickstarter budget for the year.

Dustin Staats 53:45

Hafiz Printer 53:46
I hadn’t seen that. But I kind of went if it’s if there’s a late pledge option, I might go back and just yeah.

Rich Hill 54:18
I don’t want to go over three. Uh, it’s seems pretty similar to the other ones. You know what? Why not? Yeah, people are creative people like dolls. People like building things. I say yes, it is a board.

Dustin Staats 54:31
It is not like, oh my god. The name of the board game is actually called auto mania, which is I just took doll mania and replace it with the auto mania and replace dolls with auto. So it’s about designing auto factory. And while designing automobiles in an auto factory, yes, man, so yeah, I guess you don’t have to listen to the episode. You’ll know that you

You are correct. The name of the board game is actually called an auto mania, you run an auto factory trying to produce the most popular automobiles on the market to achieve this you buy tiles to upgrade and customize your automobiles and hire specialist employees to help you.

Hafiz Printer 55:16
The dole thing seemed to really focus on like, I don’t know if there was a big enough audience for that.

Dustin Staats 55:22
Yeah, I tried to think of a word that would go good with mania. better one.

Hafiz Printer 55:29
I don’t know why that popped in my head. I was probably looking at Robin’s Cabbage Patch dolls and Beanie Babies. There’s totally were mania for doll. So for sure.

Dustin Staats 55:37
And congratulations to Hobbes with that shut out. threezero He’s the winner.

Right? Hafiz, thank you so much for coming on the show. And if anybody wanted to find you or reach out to you or check out your game that’s coming out. Well, how might they do that?

Hafiz Printer 55:57
Yeah, absolutely. I’d love to hear from people. So we have our email address is printer ink games, i n k. Because we’d like puns. And so printer ink. games@gmail.com. Feel free to reach out and say quick Hello, if you want to talk about board games, or education or just anything. I I like an email. I’m one of those weird people that just never changed from like the early 90s. Till now we’re like emails just makes me happy. If you want to check out the game, we’re launching our landing page soon. And so it’s just Baghdad rise of power calm, and you’ll be able to see some of the art you can join our subscription list. And we’ve just gotten the game up on tabletop simulator if you want to give it a try as well.

Dustin Staats 56:44
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show. heavys. Thank you for having me.

All right, rich. Thank you again for coming on via Board Gaming with Education. Perfect. And that’s podcast at Board Gaming with education.com. Thank you again, rich, and we’ll see you.

Rich Hill 56:48
I’m excited for that soda pop riot. That sounds pretty good. I like the name of it actually.

Dustin Staats 56:48
Soda Pop rivals, rivals. Yes. See, maybe there’s maybe that’s why you got it wrong.

All right. Ready for number two. You got to get two more because I have faith in you. There we go.

In doll mania, you run a doll factory trained to produce the most popular dolls on the market. To achieve this you buy tiles to upgrade and customize your dolls and hire specialist employees to help you. Is that for real? a board game?

Rich Hill 54:09
I’m gonna say no.

Dustin Staats 54:12
You’re shaking your head yes or no to try to get a response from me. I don’t want to go for three. You got to get this one.

Rich Hill 57:26
Well, thank you for having me and have a good one.

Dustin Staats 57:33
Again, this episode of Board Gaming with Education is sponsored by the world game of fun educational geography board game. It’s a super exciting and fast playing game for everyone. I highly recommend checking out this game on Kickstarter. Now. It comes with this really cool world map that includes different cards for each country with a flag and a bunch of facts. Really awesome educational resource, something I highly recommend adding to your classroom collection or a great game to play at home. And again, that’s the world game on Kickstarter.

Board Gaming with Education 58:06
Thank you for listening in this week. If you like what you heard, be sure to let us know you can find us on social media as Board Gaming with Education or PGE games or email us at podcast at Board Gaming with education.com. If you want to support our podcast Be sure to check out our support page on our website. As always teach better learn more and most importantly, play more. Thank you for listening and until next time

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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